Vampiric & Reverse attack

[Dragonsborn]

If a vampiric creature attacks another creature, and this creature has a reverse attack, then the attack is returned to the vampiric creature. Does the vampiric trait still counts even when the creature attacks itself?

[Wildhorn]

Yes. The creature would attack itself and heal itself for half of the damage. But what I wonder is, does the damage and the healing happens at sametime or the heal after the damage.

Ex: creature has 4 hp left and deal to itself 4 damage. Does it die or does it end up with 2 hp?

[jacksmack]

Yes. The creature would attack itself and heal itself for half of the damage. But what I wonder is, does the damage and the healing happens at sametime or the heal after the damage.

Ex: creature has 4 hp left and deal to itself 4 damage. Does it die or does it end up with 2 hp?

Good question.

I vote for 2hp.

[gw]

The Combat Steps don't seem to specify when attack traits are triggered (should be in 4. Damage and Effects)
but they say something about the timing of "heal"-ing :
"Healing immediately removes an amount of damage from the target." (Rulebook v2, p.26)
Vampiric is decribed as a heal : "When this attack causes damage to a Living creature, the attacker heals (removes) up to half the damage caused (round up)."(Codex v1.0).

I guess that Damage and Vampiric Heal are calculated simultaneously, so the creature survives with 2 HP as there never is a failed 0 HP check in between effects.

[sIKE]

Yes. The creature would attack itself and heal itself for half of the damage. But what I wonder is, does the damage and the healing happens at sametime or the heal after the damage.

Ex: creature has 4 hp left and deal to itself 4 damage. Does it die or does it end up with 2 hp?

Good question.

I vote for 2hp.

I think that I would rule that the creature is destroyed before the Vampiric trait could kick in and heal it. The death blow would be applied after the damage and effects phase which would result in the death of the creature and all enchantments at that point are removed from the creature and discarded along with the creature.

[baronzaltor]

There was a similar question a while back, it was stated that a creature dies at 0 health before the vampiric trait can heal it.

Creature death effectively ends the sequence instantly

[gw]

Interesting as there isn't an official "check for death" step. The interrution of effects / ignoring of the healing part seems to be quite arbitrary.

[Zuberi]

Vampiric is very clear, it does not heal any damage unless damage is dealt to a living creature. The amount healed is then based on the amount of damage dealt. Damage therefore must be applied first.

The healing is not based on the amount of damage rolled or the amount you could have done, it is based on the amount actually done. After armor and any other mechanics that may reduce it. Therefore saying that the healing itself reduces the damage makes no sense. That kind of logic would cause an infinite loop (I dealt 4 damage so I heal 2 so I dealt 2 damage so I heal 1 so I dealt 3 damage...)

The answer is very clear when you read and think about the mechanic, damage is dealt first.

[Zuberi]

Interesting as there isn't an official "check for death" step. The interrution of effects / ignoring of the healing part seems to be quite arbitrary.

The rules say whenever damage equals a creatures life it immediately dies. No need for a step, this trumps everything else and can occur during any step.

[gw]

oki 

[Shad0w]

 Zuberi just loves them stickers.