November 22, 2024, 01:18:20 AM

Author Topic: On the Value of Spawnpoints  (Read 6976 times)

Alexander West

  • Falconer
  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
On the Value of Spawnpoints
« on: January 08, 2014, 04:33:24 PM »
I think most people are not thinking about Spawnpoints correctly.  The best one is the Lair, and I will use it as an example.  It is essentially 2 Mana Crystals + a creature with 4 (or 5) dice attack and near-indestructibility for 15 mana.  The crystals are each worth 5, and the creature is worth at least 9.  And, these are super mana crystals because they have more armor and life than normal.

Whoa, you say, what is this creature?  It's your Beastmaster!  Because his action is no longer being used up summoning Level 2+ creatures, he can now move around engaging in combat and guarding things.  I feel like a lot of people say summoning a Spawnpoint is a tempo negative play, but it can actually be a huge tempo positive play in a case like this because the Beastmaster himself is about as good as most level 3 summons when it comes to combat.  (He's worth 5 dice of damage if he's battling in the same space as his pet.)

It feels like you can't do much better than getting ~ a level 3 summon and a double Mana Crystal that becomes "profitable" within 3 turns!

The value of each spawn point varies with the mage and the Spawnpoint:
Warlock/Pentagram - The warlock has melee skill, and his spawnpoint combos pretty well with his desire to summon a few big guys and be aggressive.  However, the spawnpoint is pretty vulnerable, so it's pretty dependent on how much access to Ethereal damage your opponent has.  Oddly, the more aggressive your opponent, the better it gets because you are both i) more likely to max out the mana per turn and ii) your blood pet (or whatever your first summon is) will be more likely to be in range of a target sooner.
Wizard/Gate to Voltari - Gate is as good or better than Lair: it is durable, should always produce 2 mana a turn, and will often produce 3.  The Wizard wants targets for Harmonize, and the gate provides a good one.  Having a Gate either opens a Wizard to keep investing in infrastructure, to cast lots of smaller spells/multi-summon, or to divert his action to meditating to gain vast mana advantage.
Priestess/Temple of Asyra - Probably the worst combination.  The temple is a little fragile, never produces a great amount of mana, and the Priesstess' main action is one of the less valuable.  Unless the game is looking like you can take the time to Harmonize the temple, I could see the argument for just skipping it since it doesn't reliably offer the ability to summon every turn.  Without freeing your Wizard's action, I agree the economy on these cards isn't hot.
Druid/(insert Tree) - For the Druid the trees are mandatory since they come with the built in +1 Channel.  They also feed into her core strategy of meditating in the corner while summoning via vines elsewhere.
Necromancer/Graveyard/Librum Mortus - Graveyard is very powerful in that it probably generates the most mana for its cost of any Spawnpoint, but not usually in the first few turns before there is much carnage.  Librum Mortus is cool in that it summons where you are, which could be convenient if you're getting aggressive.  Either way, getting an additional attacker, or being able to summon 2 creatures a turn (fully leveraging Death Ring) seems like a great thing to do.
(I haven't played FM vs. WL so can't comment on those.)

It should also be noted that for mages being aggressive, the ability to throw a Spawnpoint in FC on Turn 1 represents a gain on the order of a Force Push in terms of getting your summons to the enemy gate.  A Fast summon spawning there is in the opponent's business on Turn 3.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 04:57:33 PM by Alexander West »
"He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not is a fool for a lifetime."

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2014, 07:41:08 PM »
Hey! Welcome to the forum.  :D

The issue is that I already have that 4 die attack creature, and still have him even if I don't cast the Lair. I lose the ability to cast full action spells, but I'm only doing that thrice a game, maybe, so it doesn't interfere much. Don't try to sell me something I already own. :)
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Aylin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2014, 11:22:31 PM »
The problem with most spawnpoints is that you need to Swarm for it to work, and Swarm isn't that viable right now.

The only spawnpoints worth using at the moment are Battleforge, Vine Tree, Gate to Voltari, and Libro Mortuous.

Alexander West

  • Falconer
  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 11:41:34 PM »
Thanks for the welcome!

I guess I hadn't really considered that not everyone wanted to swarm!   :o

Why is swarm considered to be unviable?  Is it Suppression Orb + Mordok's Obelisk?  Ring of Fire?  Mass Sleep?  Or the fact that all of these angles exist, and a swarm is hard pressed to have good answers on hand to each of them?  Or is it something more complex?
"He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not is a fool for a lifetime."

baronzaltor

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1765
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 11:42:02 PM »
Temple of Asyra bugs me most because it requires you to summon other creatures to fuel it so it can summon creatures more effectively.

Aylin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 11:45:28 PM »
Temple of Asyra bugs me most because it requires you to summon other creatures to fuel it so it can summon creatures more effectively.

Not just that it takes other creatures (Pentagram does too), but it requires that you spend their entire action on just one mana. They're expensive Harmonizes for the **** thing.

BoomFrog

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2014, 05:47:12 AM »
I think the only good thing about the temple is that it allows you to stack all those "harmonizes" into one space.  And the temple can use it's action to cast those "harmonizes".  Basically it's the best spawnpoint for the super long game.

A priestess who starts off using walls of steel to lock herself in the corner.  Temple, 2xharmonize, 2xpriests, and a medication amulet could be pumping out +8 a turn.  Of course you better have a plan to deal with Huginn trying to teleport you out.  But at least Selesius should help you keep those Devouring oozes away from your walls.  You'd probably want to max out walls at 4xWall of steel, 4x Wall of Stone, and 2x Wall of thorns (to cast first because they are the cheapest wall that blocks line of sight and most movement).

Nullify on self and if you see Huginn then teleport him to you can cast sleep on him so he drops into your walled zone.  But the enemy wizard could prepare nulify on Huginn as well so you're probably not going to win a control battle verses a wizard.  I haven't actually tried this strategy out.

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2014, 06:27:02 AM »
I don't think spawnpoints are only good for swarms. A beastmaster who wants to summon 4-5 level 2-3s over the course of the game will probably not run out of things to do with his lair. That being said, most spawnpoints have a vulnerability and if your opponent knows what you're bringing you could run into trouble. An enemy mage who knows you're going to lay down a battleforge in fc on turn 1 can destroy it with a pair of geysers. A pair of force hammers will also put most spawnpoints to rest.

sdougla2

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 12:25:13 AM »
I don't mind if my opponent spends 18 mana on a pair of Force Hammers on my Lair, even if it is Harmonized. I will get to summon with it at least once, so I'm still coming out slightly ahead, and it's not guaranteed that they will kill it. I would prefer that they left it alone to generate me a massive late game advantage, but if they spend a similar amount of resources on killing it to what I invested in it initially, things are fine from my perspective.

Generally I find creatures a much bigger problem because of how efficient they are. I played a game tonight where I destroyed my opponent's Lair with a pair of attacks from a Steelclaw Grizzly with Bear Strength, which was much more efficient than Force Hammer in this role.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 03:17:08 AM »
If you get one Asyrian Cleric out and Harmonize the Temple of Asyra you can get it going at a decent pace. Alternatively you can use the cleric to lay down emergency healing if need be.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: On the Value of Spawnpoints
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2014, 07:04:02 AM »
@ sdougla2

I usually blow up spawnpoints to throw off my opponent's game plan and win back tempo, not necessarily for mana efficiency. That being said, Lair is one of the only spawnpoints I'll usually leave alone, just because it's so hard to get rid of.