The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN

[silverclawgrizzly]

The one good thing the Johktari really has going for her is there is A LOT to be said for an always Fast Mage. Moongoose Agility her up and you can track down and beat the enemy Necromancer to death pretty fast. Either use to bow or if things get crowded then Bears Strength her up and go bash skulls. Her best friend in this case is Cervere.

I acknowledge the undead are a problem for her, but she's still got an ace up her sleeve.

[Drac]

Hmm, how about another conjuration instead that breaks only some of the nonliving issues?  (Of course, the values are adjustable for balance purposes, it's the concept I'm shooting for here.)

Acidic Infusion
Conjuration, Epic, Zone Exclusive
Cost 7 Armour 2 Life 8
All Creatures lose and cannot gain Poison Immunity.  Bleed loses the condition "Bleed can only affect living non-plant creatures".

But what is the thematic justification? Note that you are making the following creatures vulnerable to poison:

- Iron Golems and Earth Elementals (maybe a little plausible, but still not much)
- incorporeal creatures (no way. ever.)

As I understand it,  an incorporeal creature affected by that spell still would not be affected by the loss of poison immunity unless the attack it was attached to was ethereal.  Poison enchantments on the other hand would be a different story.

[webcatcher]

On a similar theme, I wouldn't object to a mind-mage only epic conjuration that negates psychic immunity across the arena. Right now there are a lot of interesting, thematic forcemaster builds that lean on mind control, charm, and sleep that get no play at all because they auto-lose to wizards and necromancers.

[Sailor Vulcan]

What would that look like thematically? A spell that gives the "sentience" trait to all creatures?

[Wildhorn]

What would that look like thematically? A spell that gives the "sentience" trait to all creatures?

Well, the mage who control these creatures are controlling them somehow... The arena wide spell would make psychic spell to affect that "controlling link".

[webcatcher]

I can think of several ways,  but I'm not that concerned about the fluff since there are probably multiple satisfactory ways of doing it. I just find it disappointing that the entire "psychic" subclass of mind spells are generally ignored because so many builds negate them completely.

[ACG]

I agree that negating psychic immunity doesn't really make much sense thematically. Rather than removing psychic immunity (which seems a little heavy handed anyway), why not make spells that make psychic immunity into a disadvantage? For instance,

- Global psychic buffs, which would benefit all creatures without psychic immunity. This means that a living-creature mage fighting a nonliving-creature mage would be able to gain a significant advantage.

- Bad effects that can only be used on creatures with psychic immunity. Thematically a little more challenging than the above, but certainly not as much as psychic immune creatures losing their immunity.

The main thing to remember is that there are many possible explanations for why a creature is psychic-immune, and it might not necessarily imply that it is mindless. I'll try to post some specific examples of cards following the above ideas later, when I have more time.

[webcatcher]

I personally don't think that would work as well because a heavily-invested psychic mage would have to take some cards for psychic immune creatures (useless against many mages) and other cards for non psychic immunes (useless against the rest of the mages), and no one has the book resources for that.  That being said, though,  I'm not invested in my particular solution, as a Forcemaster enthusiast I'd  just like to see psychic rehabilitated.

[ACG]

The cards don't have to be solely useful against psychic immune creatures, though. For instance, consider a global effect that gives all creatures without psychic immunity the elusive trait. It gives you an advantage over a mage with psychic-immune creatures because your creatures can guard  and theirs cannot, but it could also be used by a solo forcemaster who doesn't really care about having guards to protect her and wants a non-dispel-able source of elusiveness (presumably a cheap one, since it can benefit your opponent as well).

Or consider an 'altar of rage' that gives all non-psychic immune creatures bloodthirsty +1 and rage +1. You could use it to buff or hinder non-psychic immune creatures, depending on the circumstances.

The more I think about it, the more I think global buffs are the way to go. They key is to make sure that (unlike Mind Shield) the cards have uses other than purely against psychic immune creatures.

[webcatcher]

I don't think those are uninteresting cards, but they still leave mind control and charm out in the cold.

[webcatcher]

Sorry, let me restate because I guess I wasn't clear earlier.  What I'd like to see is the rehabilitation of the puppet master type psychic mage that is possible given the current set of psychic cards but which won't work in the current state of the game.

[Zuberi]

I like ACG's answer to combating psychic immunity. Yes, charm and mind control will continue to be situational, but I get the feeling you won't be happy unless those spells are made able to affect psychic immune creatures and I strongly disagree with that approach. Those are not spells that need to affect everything. Having things that are immune to them is a good thing. Perhaps the current meta is flooded with immune creatures, but then the solution is to make more creatures, not to weaken the ones that exist.

[webcatcher]

Well,  it's not just about mind control and charm, though those are the examples I'm using.  It also applies to any future control effects produced,  and I'm sure there will be more. Here's how I see the future of psychic effects: option 1: psychic effects remain highly situational, such that the creatures played by 1/4 of the mages in the game are completely immune to them.  Result: psychic control effects will rarely get played.  I think that's uninteresting and results in a less vibrant game.  Option 2: the current batch of psychic immune creatures fall out of favor,  so psychic control effects become more useful.  Result: The game is still less interesting because there aren't as many oddball creature running around. Option 3: A method of applying psychic control effects to psychic immune creatures is introduced, even if it's awkward or expensive for the mind mage.  Result: the game becomes more vibrant as undead and golems proliferate alongside psychic control effects. That's what I'd like to see.

[Zuberi]

How does making those spells universal make the game more vibrant? I feel option 2 would be the best solution. Having psychic spells as relevant but still stoppable by psychic immune seems like the best option, option 2.

[webcatcher]

Well, let me define some terms to make sure we're not talking at cross-purposes. When I say I want the game to be "vibrant" I mean that at mid-level* play I have the maximum number of build types that are effective, so for a vibrant game I want to be able to have the option of playing as (or playing against) a psychic heavy forcemaster or a necromancer or a golem-based wizard or a lot of other things. I want them all to be viable options. In option 1 (above) the psychic heavy forcemaster isn't viable because he just won't be able to play against the necromancer or the golem wizard, and I feel like that's a loss. In option 2, the necromancer and golem wizard have faded from play in favor of possibly-less-wonky-creature builds, and I feel like that's also a loss. Option 3 is the only option in which the number of viable builds (and, hence, "vibrancy") is maximized.

*I'll define this term, too. I think of mid-level games as the kind where all the players are competent, but no one is getting ready for a tournament or anything, and I don't know which mage I'm getting ready to play against so I haven't tailored my book for anything in particular. These are the kinds of games I spend most of my time playing and I suspect the same is true of others as well.