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Author Topic: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking  (Read 7032 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« on: December 20, 2013, 08:18:30 PM »
I wasn't sure where to post this, so I put it here.

Remember the last time you had an opponent ragequit? That moment when they were so intensely nasty to you for whatever reason, and then they leave the game because they think it makes them superior? Yeah, I've found something worse than that: sorryquitting.

Sorryquitting is worse than ragequitting. A ragequitter is more likely to stay in the game longer to stick it to you, and might actually talk more about whatever's upsetting them, thereby giving their opponent more chances to attempt to reason with them before they rage quit. Furthermore, when someone ragequits, most people sigh in relief and think something like "good riddance!"

This doesn't happen for a player that sorryquits, though. A sorryquitter is a nice person who, rather than attacking their opponent like someone who is ragequitting, they're attacking themeslves. They leave a game early because they get discouraged and think they can't compete, or they don't know the rules well enough, or they haven't used OCTGN before and don't know the keyboard shortcuts, ignoring or forgetting that every good player has been in the same position many times.

And when they leave, you feel really sad because you were probably just deprived of a fun and exciting game against a fun and exciting opponent. Then you get annoyed because the player base on OCTGN is so small (relatively speaking) that you might not be able to get another opponent for several hours. They might think they're wasting your time by trying to play against you, but the reality is that they're wasting much more of your time by sorryquitting.

Also, on a related note, I want to point out that the rules of Mage Wars, while the major gist of them is simple and intuitive, many of the details are complex and difficult to quickly grasp. I think I can safely say that nearly every Mage Wars player has accidentally cheated at some point before. I understand that a very sizable fraction of Mage Wars players are hardcore competitive gamers, and that's not a bad thing. However, when it comes to accidental rule-breaking in casual games, I think we should all cut people some slack. Rather than getting angry or impatient, we merely need to explain how they broke the rules, linking to somewhere in a Rulebook, FAQ, or forum-ruling if necessary.

It seems to me that the attitude that quite a few people have towards accidental rule-breaking in casual Mage Wars games seems to be "You cheated! I don't care the reason why, you had better STOP RIGHT NOW!"

This attitude is not helpful to newer or less experienced players. None of us wants to feel like a darn dirty cheater, we just want to learn from and fix our mistakes so that we can improve our game and have fun while doing it.

It kind of worries me that my last opponent sorryquitted before I had even cast my first spell of the game. I've only ever won once or twice and I've lost probably dozens of games, but for whatever reason they were so discouraged that they believed they had no chance against me. Why were they so discouraged?

I think that it should be stressed that Mage Wars is a complex game with a high learning curve, but that a high learning curve should not have to be daunting or intimidating. After all, every high learning curve is made of a bunch of smaller ones, and life itself probably has the highest learning curve. In life we never know all the rules, and because of that we make mistakes, yet many of us still manage to enjoy life and improve ourselves in spite of that. The same can be said for Mage Wars, but I think it's generally far easier to learn to play Mage Wars then to learn how to live your life.

So relax, enjoy a game of Mage Wars, try not to get impatient with less experienced players, and please don't sorryquit.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:28:21 AM by Imaginator »
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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 11:57:32 PM »
Hmm, while this article is interesting, there is a good cure all... playing IRL. Most of time, if I sorryquit, it's because I have to actually go. Most games I play online tend to take a long time (which is a huge reason to play IRL), and I don't always have the time.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 01:21:43 AM »

Hmm, while this article is interesting, there is a good cure all... playing IRL. Most of time, if I sorryquit, it's because I have to actually go. Most games I play online tend to take a long time (which is a huge reason to play IRL), and I don't always have the time.

That's perfectly reasonable and understandable. I actually wasn't thinking of that kind of sorryquitting. I was talking about when a player leaves a game because they feel discouraged or unconfident. However it doesn't sound right to call it discouragementquitting.

The reason I wrote this (which I mentioned in the OP, sorry if I wasn't clear) was because my last opponent quit the game before I had cast any spells because they felt like they were "wasting my time". The reason for this was that they felt like they didn't know enough. It was their first time on OCTGN and they didn't know any of the keyboard shortcuts, and they hadn't checked the forums in a while so didn't know about the new initiative rule. They said they'd pore over the rulebook some more and maybe play against me again some other time.

No one made any illegal plays, and the game had barely begun at all. Yet they kept apologizing when there was nothing to be sorry for, like an ex-MTG control player who hasn't quite recovered from all the CRAP  they had to put up with for their strategic preferences. (I've been through that and I'm still quite sore about it.)

That's why I called it sorryquitting.

Also, not everyone has successfully found or created a real life playgroup. I haven't and I've been trying since summer when I started playing.
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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2013, 01:47:56 AM »
I've never had anyone sorryquit as you describe because they weren't confident enough in the rules. I've had people concede because I had an insurmountable board advantage (or they thought I did) or they ran out of damage sources while I had plenty.
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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2013, 01:56:18 AM »
I've played a great many games, not so much mage wars but others, where I've seen this before. Where someone starts to look down and they talk down to themselves until they finally go on tilt. That's usually when the hands go up and they're like, "I can't do anything we're done".

In my experience the best solution is understanding. It doesn't work for everyone, but if you're willing to help walk them through it. Then they can see a better game, and they can move forward.

The problem I had with sorryquitting was that it eventually turns into "sorry can't play"-ing. OCTGN might be tough, but IRL we need to reach out to people who may feel left behind. No one should stop playing a game cause they feel they can't keep up. If they want to enjoy all of the rich experience that gaming offers, we should help them. That goes beyond Mage Wars.

Now that I've rant a little bit, I'll just sum it up by saying, I learned how to play games by beating my head against a brick wall. Then one day I had a friend offer to teach me. The best thing we can do is help those who'll let us.

And now I've "philosophized" up the end of this post. Oh well, it's late and Christmas is four days away.

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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2014, 09:20:10 PM »
I have looked forward to the day I have time to play on OCTGN and I have very few people for IRL gaming, but I agree that the biggest thing is to help teach people to play MW.  This game is...epic.  "Sorryquitters" can be difficult when playing any game online but in something that we are so passionate about it becomes annoying.  I have an account and am willing to play against anyone even if I lose but it is just a matter of finding the time.  Good luck to everyone and if you want to duke it out on the board, let me know. 

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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 02:10:28 AM »
Just now spotted this thread and it's all good advice. I am very new to Mage Wars and I don't actually know what "OCTGN" means. You can play online? Anyway I have been a gamer for many years. Table top RPGs, LARPs, board games, you name it and I've played it. I'm a competitive Hero Clix player and I'm terrible at Magic.

One thing I will say is true of every single game(and really any hobby) is you need to support new players or you're going to be in real trouble. I been playing this game about two weeks, my roommate and I got it after a local game store messed up his order and we had store credit. Since then we've taught it to our other roommate, and four other friends. Now we got orders in at another game store for more copies of the core set and we're all eagerly looking forward to playing again. You grow your community or you end up playing alone and that's just not as much fun. I'm lucky in that my town has a healthy gaming community, and all of us new Mage Warriors are trying our best to get as much of that as we can into this game.
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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 09:48:31 AM »
Hmm, while this article is interesting, there is a good cure all... playing IRL. Most of time, if I sorryquit, it's because I have to actually go. Most games I play online tend to take a long time (which is a huge reason to play IRL), and I don't always have the time.

Second this solution.

What you describe seems to be a 'cost' of using online gaming technology. It is far easier for another person to walk away from a keyboard/screen when uncertain or discouraged about what they are facing, than when face to face with another person who is willing to empathize with their situation. Just the act of getting agreement from a new person to start playing a new game face to face will help break down some of their hesitations/concerns.

Not every person will learn the same way or at the same speed as you did. Setting clear ground rules up front can help. For example, in online or face to face situations let the other person know you understand that it took time to learn the game and are willing to help the other player through this experience. So take back moves are expected EVEN if they slow US down. Not completing an entire game is acceptable as long as the new player is learning. Offer to openly share the logic of your moves at times as you play. This can help the other person learn different ways to "see" the board situation and make planning and action round decisions. It can also reduce the competitive nature of the specific battle, which can create barriers to learning in many people.

I've found it easier to invest my time up front searching for face to face players willing to learn, than to search in the online world. This adds to my investment in time, but helps me identify people and encourage them to learn the game in ways that are not possible through technology alone. It helps to be in an urban area (Washington DC Metro) with a vibrant gaming community that meets regularly. You may want to check out the convention scene and identify opportunities to travel and meet face to face people. It is funny how many game conventions I've been to where I meet someone who lives within 30 minutes of me. I focus on board gaming conventions rather than card gaming conventions because Mage Wars is more of a battle and board experience for me. 
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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 05:07:41 PM »
This kind of thing reminds why I can't bring myself to play MW on OCTGN. This game is too complex for beginners to play online with anonymous experts, I feel... there is too much to get wrong.

The only way I would want to play this game online as a beginner is with restricted customization, and a much more automated UI.

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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 07:46:14 PM »
This kind of thing reminds why I can't bring myself to play MW on OCTGN. This game is too complex for beginners to play online with anonymous experts, I feel... there is too much to get wrong.

The only way I would want to play this game online as a beginner is with restricted customization, and a much more automated UI.
I think that a much more automated game would be a negative for a beginner. I think that a good part of the math is done for you but you have to place damage etc. As for learning online, there are all levels out there. Don't sign on and play Charmyna or Padawan unless they agree that it is more a beginners game. Playing with someone that has some experience in both will really help those new to both and will help with the ins and outs of the game and OCTGN.
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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 12:49:57 PM »
Another point of view:

I spent 10+ years of my life as one of the top M:TG players in my country, and even at one stage the world, reaching a ranking of #10.

So I know what it means to play a game seriously.

Fast forward a few years and I am married with kids but every now and again get the itch for a game.

Mage Wars scratches that itch - so I buy some cards but soon find it too involved to get my social gaming group playing it.

So I head over to OCTN. My first two opponents are great - the guide me through the quirky interface and correct me on mistakes I make. But two problems are readily apparent. One it takes two hours to finish a game and secondly the game is uncompromising.

Then the third opponent ruins the experience. Firstly I reveal a water wizard and he immediately points out I netdecked a Charmya deck but he is incorrect as I built it myself. I don't bother to reply.

Next over the first two turns I make mistakes - but in the next phase ask if I can fix them. He goes "I don't know - you made the mistake". I suck it up without complaining but it apparent that the game is lost. My opening is not going to work and since it is a tempo play I am not regaining it.

So I say gg and quit on turn three. (seemingly a sorry quit but the right to not play out games where you believe you have no chance is well established, from chess to M:tg - only in real world sports is it consider bad form to quit if you 6-0 and 5-0 down in a tennis match)

I have not been back to OCTGN or played Mage wars since for the following reasons:

1. It is not a relaxed environment - it is a kill or be killed environment - which is odd because there is nothing at stake.
2. It takes long - and Mage Wars has seemingly a runaway leader problem. M:TG has a ton of things to keep most games drawing live until the last turn or so. There is no Wrath of God in Mage Wars.
3. It is constructed. Constructed play is somewhat like building your own car - fun for those who can spend a 1000 hours on it - but it like a trip to the dentist for anyone else. If Mage Wars was sealed deck or draft - boy o boy count me in

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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 04:26:00 PM »
Wonder Boy, first of all, welcome to the forums.

Secondly, I am sorry your experience with the game thus far has been bad. This game can take a while to play, especially when just starting, and that time is only extended when trying to use a program such as OCTGN. IRL play tends to be quite a bit shorter, especially after both players have had a few games.

Your OCTGN experience, to me, sounds like you just had a bad opponent in the third game. Some people fully intend on playing the game "the right way", meaning that if you make a mistake, you made it and you can't change it. Now, in tournaments and other serious competitions, I can understand that. But at the core of it, this is simply a game and shouldn't be taken so seriously. I can assure you that not everybody is like this. There is a Facebook group for OCTGN players (and there is a thread on here as well) where you can find others to play with and specify that you want it to be a casual game and not so serious.

However, that being said, I would have tried explaining to your opponent (perhaps you did, there's no way I would know) that you are new to the game and made a simple mistake. Most players would let you fix your mistake rather than have you leave halfway through.

I implore you to not let this experience ruin this fantastic game for you. It is a highly rewarding experience when you win, or even sometimes when you lose, an epic match.
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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 04:36:32 PM »
1) This was my experience with MtG: I had three big reasons I finally quit that game, and one of them was that for over two years I felt like everyone else was practicing for a tournament.  I wanted a more casual playing environment, where I could (for example) bring out my Angel deck, or my Thallids, and not have it face whatever flavours won the tournaments that month.

My local meta with Mage Wars seems to strike just the right balance atm: casual enough that I can play decks I enjoy, instead of being 'forced' to always play (or play against!) Wizard Control auto-win.  Yet challenging enough that I still lose around half my games overall, and I'm almost always thinking about ways I can tweak a book after a game to make it better.  That's what keeps me coming back to MW.

However!  I haven't played on OCTGN in months, because my experience with it is that the players there are nearly all either complete newbies, or the type that practice for tournaments they'll never actually compete in.  The newbies are fine, and even fun to teach, but the text-based chat is inherently limiting for that, and it makes a game take *hours*.   I'm just competitive enough that the I-only-play-in-tournaments types are the real fun killer for me.  As a result, I don't get to play as much as I'd like.  Different strokes and all that. ; )

2) My local meta has dealt with the runaway leader issue by being *perfectly fine* with stopping a new game (and usually starting another) if one player comes out the clear winner.  It even promotes friendly play, done right: I remember one game I thought my opponent had a clear win, and I was ready to quit; he didn't agree, so we played it out a bit longer, and I eventually clawed my way back to a win.  He earned quite a bit of respect from me for that, on a number of levels.  Again though, not something that works very well on OCTGN in my experience.

3) Here we'll have to disagree completely.  Spellbook construction is half the fun of the game for me.  I must admit though, while I don't spend hundreds of hours constructing spellbooks, I probably spend roughly 1/3 of my total MW time designing books instead of playing them--and having a blast doing so.  If MW could somehow be drafted, I would almost certainly not be interested.  Different strokes, again.

4) In my experience, most players are willing to let a new player take back their mistake--even on OCTGN.  My personal policy is to treat myself as a reasonably experienced player; for example, if I see a new player making what looks like a clear mistake, I'll point it out to them ("We're heading to First Quick-Cast; did you not want to Deploy that face-down card?").  If it's a mistake that doesn't significantly alter the game, or one that *I* should have noticed and didn't, I'll usually let them correct it--always, if I haven't acted or made a public decision yet.

Hopefully your social gaming group will come around in time.  In my experience, OCTGN Mage Wars is a *completely different game* from meatspace Mage Wars.  Meatspace is (as usual) much faster and friendlier.

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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2014, 10:05:17 AM »
Wonder Boy does have at least one very good point: not everyone is going to be interested in book building. For that reason, I'm sad that his octgn opponent tried to shame him for "netdecking." There needs to be space in the game for people who are happier playing a book someone else made and for that reason alone I'm happy we have a list of strong builds with relevant links.

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Re: The Sorryquit and Accidental Rulebreaking
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 10:21:06 AM »
If Mage Wars was sealed deck or draft - boy o boy count me in

This!