DvN rules questions

[ringkichard]

Idol of Pestilence specifies "living creature". Vine markers aren't creatures.

[DeckBuilder]

First I apologize if this question has been previously addressed. I tried to find the answer before posting, but could not.

1) Does poison effect plants/vines like normal? Without the poison immunity listed on the creature card or Druid's card I'm assuming it does but wanted to double check. I would be hard pressed to find a reason why thematically they wouldn't be.

2) If plants/vines are harmed by poison, and the druid's vines are only 1hp with any damage killing them, if I were to bring out 'Idol of Pestilence' would that destroy every 1hp vine on the board?

Nice ideas here, Joe.

1. Currently (unless I've missed a ruling in a plethora of dispersed sources). Poison effects like Idol of Pestilence, Poison Gas Cloud or Plagued will harm Plants only if they are Creatures, not Conjurations. This is obviously a big issue when leveraging the Necromancer's Immunity, is anti-intuitive and the inconsistency jars. I hope they will correct this in the new set's rules.

2. Where is this "1hp vines" rule sourced? (Hit Points?) My understanding is vine markers are just that, markers to indicate terrain in that zone, and markers don't have life (but may have a removal cost for specific effects). Seedling Pods are 5hp (you've got me doing it now!) and I doubt there will be anything more fragile. Seedling Pods are also conjurations therefore (unintuitively on current wording) they take no Pestilence damage anyway.

Do I get the impession you are focused very much on the side of the Necromancer?

[sIKE]

Vine Markers (Game Marker)
Vine markers are a Living conjuration with 1 life, no armor, and they cannot gain armor. Vine markers hinder enemy non-Flying creatures. Any mount of damage will destroy a Vine Marker, regardless of its total life. They can't be targeted by ranged attacks. Any number of Vine markers can occupy a zone. As the Druid, or any object she controls, casts a vine spell, you can destroy a target Vine marker she controls as an additional cost to cast that spell. If you do, you may target that Vine marker's zone, an object in that Vine marker's zone, or a border of that Vine marker's zone, ignoring range. If two or more Druids are playing, each should use a different side of the Vine marker to distinguish ownership.

[DeckBuilder]

Thanks for that, sIKE, I couldn't find it anywhere on this thread. Vine markers are far worse than I imagined, really fragile!

It seems like Pestilence, Gas Cloud, Plagued etc will only harm creatures (as per text).

So the above Poison effects harm Kralathor, Togorah, Vine Snapper, Raptor Vine etc

Poison cannot harm vine markers, Seedling Pods, Vine Tree, Samara Tree, Etherian Lifetree, Wall of Thorns, Tanglevine, Mana Flower

I guess this a necessary balance rule, like how former can be targeted by enchantments like Bear Strength and Rhino Hide. Maybe we can explain it as "the former are sentient plants"? It seems to me Poison can only harm plants with activation markers for some reason.

A necessary evil, I guess, as they made Vine MARKERS a conjuration (which also breaks another consistency in rules about markers).

I think they have a created a mess in consistency and intuitiveness here. Sad panda.

[ringkichard]

Wait,

If vine markers are conjurations, does that mean Earthquake can damage them? Vine Markers can't be targeted by ranged attacks, but Earthquake doesn't seem to make ranged attacks (or even a zone attack). Huh.

[DeckBuilder]

Yeah, that is bad. Good spot!

I really hope they are reading and not too late to change this mess they have created for themselves (i.e. has not gone to print yet).

Shocked these issues haven't been picked up already.

[HomelessJoe]

Sorry for breaking the game hahahaha. Just kidding. MAGE WARS FOR LIFE!!!!

[sIKE]

(which also breaks another consistency in rules about markers).

I think they have a created a mess in consistency and intuitiveness here. Sad panda.

Not sure of the direction here, if everything fit neatly in four different types of boxes I would feel that the game is much closer to Monopoly than what it is. To me the game designer for a game like this should have a great deal of flexibility.

My question to you is, if they didn't expand upon what a "marker" could be and wanted to implement the "Vine Feature" (as it can't be a marker!) how would you do it?

[sIKE]

Wait,

If vine markers are conjurations, does that mean Earthquake can damage them? Vine Markers can't be targeted by ranged attacks, but Earthquake doesn't seem to make ranged attacks (or even a zone attack). Huh.

Of course not, Earthquake is not a Ranged Attack. Vines are Corporeal conjuration and if they are in 1-2 Adjacent zones they would be destroyed if they were to take any damage as per the Earthquake and Vines text.

Nothing is broken here...

[DeckBuilder]

My question to you is, if they didn't expand upon what a "marker" could be and wanted to implement the "Vine Feature" (as it can't be a marker!) how would you do it?

Gotta be quick (Friday night here in UK, rushing out) but I assumed...

Vine Markers are a marker on a zone. You may have multiples in 1 zone. Spell effects (like Purify / Clear Mind) may be able to remove any number of any type of markers (future proof) in 1 zone en mass by paying removal cost so stacking them is risky. They are placed in or adjacent to existing vine markers or Druid and don't need line of sight when spreading adjacent. Druid can cast a Vine spell in any zone with own vine marker by destroying that vine marker as part of its cost, irrespective of range or line of sight.

Balancing factor to consider: vine markers may or may not hinder non-flying enemies (it does not make sense vs. another Nature mage, my vines hinder your Kralathor?). I think this rule was also unnecessary with Zombies already Lumbering.

Effectively, vine markers are exactly what it says on the tin: vine MARKERS.

[Kharhaz]

Yeah, that is bad. Good spot!

I really hope they are reading and not too late to change this mess they have created for themselves (i.e. has not gone to print yet).

Shocked these issues haven't been picked up already.

Wait what?

There is no mess, earthquake will clear two zones worth of tokens, it's not an oversight as it was brought up multiple times in playtesting.... so maybe I am missing the issue here.

[Kharhaz]

Effectively, vine markers are exactly what they say they are: vine MARKERS.

If they were markers then you could not destroy them with melee attacks.... stackable conjuration markers they be

[DeckBuilder]

Nothing is broken here...

But there is plenty of unnecessarily inelegant inconsistency and anti-intuitiveness here. This is the game's biggest selling point.

Equiping a Loxodon Warhammer to a Bird of Paradise breaks no rules either.

[HomelessJoe]

Instead of making them Tokens with life (something new to the game), they could have chose to mimic the Swamp Orcs faction in Summoner Wars by giving the Druid special vine cards that were mage exclusive with zero spell points. I believe by doing this their description/classification would have played better. However, if this was done i'm sure the board would feel even more busy.

I was just kidding about breaking the game. I firmly believe that Mage Wars is the tightest living card game on the planet.

Truthfully I don't really care the outcome of whether they can be damaged via poison or not. I just want to know the answer whatever that may be so that I don't play incorrectly. Thematically I can just pretend they are roots instead of vines, and the topsoil is hindering the poison.

[sIKE]

But there is plenty of unnecessarily inelegant inconsistency and anti-intuitiveness here. This is the game's biggest selling point.

Mages duking it out via custom built spellbooks, I would think would be a bigger selling point, not that a marker is a marker and can only (mark or mean) one thing else introduce inelegance or inconsistency and anti-intuitiveness. Rules are meant to broken....

Equiping a Loxodon Warhammer to a Bird of Paradise breaks no rules either.

This would break the rules, as you are allowed to only cast equipment spells upon your mage. Now if you are saying a Bird of Paradise is a type a mage and that mage has no equipment limitation (like saying only equipment from the Nature School are allowed in the (Hand Slot or Hand + Shield slot) then that would be  inelegance, and a bit of inconsistency and anti-intuitive.....