Meditation Amulet

[ringkichard]

one finger discount

Hah! Yes! Be my friend!

[Aylin]

You're kinda moving  the goalposts  subbing in the amulet and another tree for the two most inexpensive components.

That was not my intention. My line of thinking was to find a way to use the Meditation Amulet to gain an overall action advantage, as otherwise we're still back to 3 mana not being worth a full action, and the only way to do that is with 2 spawnpoints (something a non-amulet build wouldn't be able to do because of a lack of mana).

Under the same conditions, Ring/Tree/Butterfly/Amulet is more fair, which I have at 6 rounds, -20 mana, -4 quick, and -2 full for +4 profit and +5 full/quick (assuming 2 full plants or less from druid). If you spam enough fulls from vine tree, you can counteract the downside enough to make the extra 4 mana worth it IMO, and if you milk more, that's gravy.

I assume you're using Vine Tree above?

This is still highly unfavourable to the Meditation Amulet. In the above example you've made 4 mana and spent 1 action, while using Mana Flower instead of the Amulet gives you 2 mana and 1 action (and leaves you with more options during an attack since you don't need to meditate to keep your mana advantage).  2 mana per full action taken is pretty dismal.

[/quote]But secondly, none of this matters anyway.  Any build that spends two turns farming up will likely scoop to rush no matter what cards you use (unless you're Wizard).[/quote]

Yes, I mention that; if the opponent doesn't cast +channeling spells you would switch to defense. It's part of what makes me dislike meditation amulet, since it requires multiple casts and many actions just to make itself useful (which in many cases you won't have).

For example, I would never count on Butterfly, aka Flameblast bait, going past a round.

I think it's a lot more situational than that. Taratree acts sort of like harmonize on a a tree (that can also heal it). The big thing to me is that while dispel is 0-2, flameblast (or Arc Lightning or Geyser) is 0-1.

And the same I-see-you-playing-cards-that-do-nothing-until-late-game-holy-crap-I-go-kill-you-now arguement against amulet applies here tenfold. You're way better off going spawnpoint/amulet, spawnpoint/mana rock, or spawnpoint/one finger discount and being done with it.

The problem spawnpoint/amulet has that the others are immune to is that if you cannot spend your full actions for < 3 mana then you've wasted an action and mana on nothing, while the others will eventually pay themselves off no matter what you do.

[Artemus Maximus]

Appreciate all the insight 'm planning on trying it with Wallord (aspiring Warlord  walled fort defense) might make Barracks more palatable. He's often starved for mana and i recall several instances where he had a spare full action sitting behind the walls.

Worst case scenario - it helps my handicap book out a little :-)

[Randyman]

I would like to raise two points.

First, while using the card, when it was a promo, my good friend got very good mileage from ut using the old shcool beast master based on the fact that lair is a very strong spawnpoint and that he can summon creatures as a quick action. Instead of swarming with small and the occational mid strength creatures he could play more mid and even high strength ones. It got pretty ugly fast.

Second, I do belive that it will be important for a necromancer who wishes to play alot of reanimate and such. From what I gather he needs to have the mana on hand at the moment of the kill to be able to use reanimate or rise again, a very nice card to play with sectarus, since it gives him the opportunity to gain mana mid trun he can use it if he sees that it will be needed to bring back the minions from the grave. On top of the fact that it boost spawnpoints...

[ChimpZilla]

Hah! Yes! Be my friend!

Done. 

That was not my intention. My line of thinking was to find a way to use the Meditation Amulet to gain an overall action advantage, as otherwise we're still back to 3 mana not being worth a full action, and the only way to do that is with 2 spawnpoints (something a non-amulet build wouldn't be able to do because of a lack of mana).

Yeah... thinking it over after posting, I see your angle. Fair point.

I assume you're using Vine Tree above?
2 mana per full action taken is pretty dismal.

Except when it's more than two actions. 2.33 mana per action a third time and topping off at 2.66 at four plus actions. No other card in the game trades an action for two mana, let alone that amount. If I use amulet once every three turns, I will always have a +2 profit over mana flower. Ultimately, we have to see how valuable 2+ mana per action is.

Yes, I mention that; if the opponent doesn't cast +channeling spells you would switch to defense. It's part of what makes me dislike meditation amulet, since it requires multiple casts and many actions just to make itself useful (which in many cases you won't have).

With "multiple casts", are you referring to spawnpoint use?

I think it's a lot more situational than that. Taratree acts sort of like harmonize on a a tree (that can also heal it). The big thing to me is that while dispel is 0-2, flameblast (or Arc Lightning or Geyser) is 0-1.

Don't forget stuff like knockdown, snipershot, sleep, and zone attacks (especially sandstorm). Love the card, cool design,  but unless you rouse it, opponents still have a turn to fetch whatever silver bullet they pack.

The problem spawnpoint/amulet has that the others are immune to is that if you cannot spend your full actions for < 3 mana then you've wasted an action and mana on nothing, while the others will eventually pay themselves off no matter what you do.

For everyone's sanity, here's a competitively practical example, I'll end my say, and let you and others pick at it.

Druid Ring/Vine Tree vs. Vine Tree/Flower vs. Vine Tree/Amulet.
+2 profit, +2 actions turn 5 vs. +1 profit, +4 actions turn 6 vs. just +1 profit turn 5.

Slam dunk for ring on paper, but what if I get stunned and have a full plant spell? What if I get siphoned? What if I have no target to strangle/tangle? What about upkeep? It can't absorb legacy costs and ultimately requires you to spend money to make money.

Better in the short term, but Amulet lets me go rounds without casting and getting me farm letting me play or support more threatening things later. I'm more likely to spare a full action or two than have a viable plant spell to cast every turn long term.

And don't forget, druid is the only mage that can subsidize her spawnpoints directly. For other mages, you open with mana rocks or amulet. And I mention the tradeoffs above: You sack profit for actions on one and do the opposite with the other. I think it's close enough to depend on what you want from your build. My $0.02.

[Aylin]

Except when it's more than two actions. 2.33 mana per action a third time and topping off at 2.66 at four plus actions. No other card in the game trades an action for two mana, let alone that amount. If I use amulet once every three turns, I will always have a +2 profit over mana flower. Ultimately, we have to see how valuable 2+ mana per action is.

If you use the Amulet once every 3 turns (assuming you didn't use Leaf Ring to cast the mana flower), you're at +1 mana and will lose in terms of actions. Using it 1 out of every 3 turns just doesn't make sense, but then using it more often doesn't make a lot of sense either. Probably using it 2 out of every 3 turns is the best, but that is still very painful.

With "multiple casts", are you referring to spawnpoint use?

I'm referring to anything that will give you the ability to "make up" for your inability to use your full action if you meditate.

Don't forget stuff like knockdown, snipershot, sleep, and zone attacks (especially sandstorm). Love the card, cool design,  but unless you rouse it, opponents still have a turn to fetch whatever silver bullet they pack.

Sandstorm isn't in the game officially yet, though it is a very powerful card (I have issues with an unavoidable ranged quick attack spell with range 0-2 for reasons not relevant to this discussion though). However, since it isn't officially released, I don't think it's much of an issue for now. Of the current zone attacks released, all of them either don't have unavoidable (83.3% chance to miss) or are range 0-0 except for Firestorm, which would be a very painful counter (mostly because it has a decent chance of burning down whatever tree Taratree is on).

A knockdown/sniper shot + melee/ranged attack would probably kill Taratree, but at a cost of 3 mana and 2 actions (as opposed to the 6 mana and 1 action I summoned it with). In terms of tempo I win here. Also that melee or ranged attack is one that isn't damaging me or something more valuable.

Sleep would be highly effective against Taratree (unless the Druid had a Wand of Healing), but I've noticed that most books only have 1-2 copies of sleep. If they want to use it on Taratree I think I'd be ok with that (though I suspect they'd be more likely to sleep Kralathor or Togorah).

I think you're overlooking something about Taratree though; using it as a "poisoned pawn".

However, I think the most effective tool against Taratree is the good ol' Idol of Pestilence. Rousing Taratree doesn't make any sense to me though, since you'd spend 1 quick cast and 1 mana to...give one of your trees 1 mana (a prime example of things that are just not worth it).

For everyone's sanity, here's a competitively practical example, I'll end my say, and let you and others pick at it.

Druid Ring/Vine Tree vs. Vine Tree/Flower vs. Vine Tree/Amulet.
+2 profit, +2 actions turn 5 vs. +1 profit, +4 actions turn 6 vs. just +1 profit turn 5.

I think you're a bit off here. First you're comparing 2 of them at turn 5 and 1 of them at turn 6 (why not all of them at one turn, or better yet, all of them at say turns 4-6?), and second by turn 6 the Vine/Flower combo gives you +3 actions by turn 6 (though on turn 5 you have -3 mana and +2 actions).

Slam dunk for ring on paper, but what if I get stunned and have a full plant spell?

If you're stunned you can only cast quick spells with your actions iirc, so you wouldn't be able to meditate either. In either case, you could still cast spells from equipment you're wearing (such as Mohktari's branch or Wand of Healing).

What if I get siphoned?

I think I've seen this in play...once, so I'm not used to fighting against it. However, most of my books include a copy of Divine Might and at least 2 ethereal attack spells, so I suppose I would just use those. *Shrug*

What if I have no target to strangle/tangle?

I think I'd be using those spells during the deployment phase (off of Vine Tree), since that way I could deploy a Vine marker and then immediately have it Tangle/Strangle something. I do find it a little incredulous that there would be no targets in 0-2 or in a zone with a vine marker. Work on positioning more I suppose, or cast a spell off of one of your equipment? The only I can see this happening is if you didn't pay attention to the board position or you were surprised by a teleport (though I repeat myself).

What about upkeep?

  I think some of these are getting a little ridiculous. No one's claiming that a particular mana spell is best in all situations, or that specifically the ring is designed to worry about upkeep costs.

It can't absorb legacy costs and ultimately requires you to spend money to make money.

You call mana "money", but mana isn't the only currency in the game. It isn't even the most valuable one. Every[/b] spell in the game has you spending currency to make other currency (even creatures, where you spend mana and 1 action for more actions), but the Meditation Amulet is the only spell in the game that asks you to spend 1 quick action, 2 full actions, and 4 mana in order to make 2 (and after that 1 full action to make 3).

Druid's Leaf Ring is cheap and can be used on ~80% of the spells a Druid would probably include in a book. It allows you to build up forces for your assault or defend against one equally well. Meditation Amulet only lets you build up, at the highest price of any mana spell in the game.

Opening with Meditation Amulet and Vine Tree tells your opponent on turn 1 that you're planning for a long game and that you're not prepared for an early assault (at the very least, you've wasted mana/actions on something worthless when you're under attack).



Now, I wish Meditation Amulet was viable. I really, really do (I hate it in games when one choice is better than another 99.9% of the time), but in the current meta I don't think it has a realistic place, except perhaps against opponents of a lower skill as a deliberate handicap/teaching tool.

[ChimpZilla]

@Aylin,

I'm not gonna belabor this much longer as our opinions won't change and I do respect what you're saying. But a few things:

1. Check the math again. Flower cost five, breaks even turn six, and is +3 every three turns after. Amulet costs four, is +2 turn six after two uses, and remains +2 over every three turns I use it.

2. Akiro's Hammer and Ludwig are 0-1. Hail of Stones left out unavoidable and was errata'd.

3. Yes, I was off one mana and I intended to show the break even/profit of each option but didn't make that clear. My apologies.

4. If I'm stunned one turn, I still have three turns to get two meditates to maintain profit. If I prep a full plant spell and  stunned prior to casting it, I lose the benefit of ring throwing off the profitability.

5. The ring's discount doesn't apply to spells cast from your spawnpoint.

6. There's a difference between spending less and gaining more. Spending less doesn't move the ceiling on what you can buy. Gaining more does. Legacy costs like upkeep and spreading vines a la vine tree tend to eat more into that ceiling over time. So, hardly ridiculous IMO.

7. I would seriously argue mana is the more important currency. Decisions matter more than options, if that makes sense.  Early game, it's somewhat relevant only because everyone has an additional ten mana and can generate big threats that need answering, not solely because of some action surplus/deficit. As the game goes on, your income erodes and it becomes a matter of playing better stuff than your opponent, not more. There will be times when spare actions in the bank do nothing. And it's not like regaining tempo is all that expensive. When it comes to force push, teleport, etc., you're not breaking the bank paying two over a ring. Actions are nice, but I find them to be overrated in that regard.

8. I remember all the threads screaming for Warlock to be buffed because they looked at him in a vacuum and ignored his merits. The problem is the meta ceases to be current once this is released. We have playtesters who changed it from it's original promo and felt it fit for the wild. One in particular, opined that while the card won't see play in an average competitive build, but there are avenues where it will find play. Another respected community member liked the card after playing it in certain capacities after writing it off as most have. That's my point: I can think of two archetypes where this could be the better choice but it won't likely see much play outside that. I won't say it's ****. But I didn't say it's the **** either.  I'm just not willing to call this a coaster yet. 

[Aylin]

@Aylin,

I'm not gonna belabor this much longer as our opinions won't change and I do respect what you're saying. But a few things:

1. Check the math again. Flower cost five, breaks even turn six, and is +3 every three turns after. Amulet costs four, is +2 turn six after two uses, and remains +2 over every three turns I use it.

I was saying that that Amulet would give you 1 more mana than the flower would if you use the Amulet one turn out of every three. I suppose I should have that clearer. My point was that 1 extra mana overall is NOT worth all of those full actions.

2. Akiro's Hammer and Ludwig are 0-1. Hail of Stones left out unavoidable and was errata'd.

   Akiro's Hammer is 2-3, is Warlord only, and is considered to be a pretty poor play even for him (which is saying something considering how awful the Warlord is). Ludwig Boltstorm's attack is 1-1, not 0-1, and again I've never seen him in play.

Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.

3. Yes, I was off one mana and I intended to show the break even/profit of each option but didn't make that clear. My apologies.

I was pointing out that you were off in terms of actions, not mana.

4. If I'm stunned one turn, I still have three turns to get two meditates to maintain profit. If I prep a full plant spell and  stunned prior to casting it, I lose the benefit of ring throwing off the profitability.

The ring is better than the flower for mana if there are < 3 turns in which you don't cast a plant spell (and equal if there are 3 such turns), and the flower is better than the amulet if you meditate 1 turn in 3.

Also your scenario is assuming that you have neither the Wand of Healing nor a quick plant spell AND that you wanted to cast a full plant spell that turn. That is a fairly specific set of requirements especially since casting the full plant spell from the Vine Tree would, in general, be the better play.

Though the real issue here is why are you stuned? If an enemy mage is punching you in the face or you're getting hit by an angel or Galador, why would you keep meditating instead of solving that problem first? (There are other sources of stuns, of course, such as the Goblin Bomber [lol] or a Light or Lightning attack spell though if your opponent is using them on you either you're losing badly (or are at least at a positional disadvantage) or your opponent made a tactical error and in either case mana efficiency isn't that important anymore).

[/quote]5. The ring's discount doesn't apply to spells cast from your spawnpoint. [/quote]

O...k...? The idea is that you'd be casting a plant spell yourself nearly every round anyway, in addition to your spawnpoint. It only applies to one spell a round, so why would it matter that you can't cheapen spells from a spawnpoint?

6. There's a difference between spending less and gaining more. Spending less doesn't move the ceiling on what you can buy. Gaining more does. Legacy costs like upkeep and spreading vines a la vine tree tend to eat more into that ceiling over time. So, hardly ridiculous IMO.

The ring not paying "legacy" costs only matter if you don't plan on casting anything in a particular round, especially since nearly every spell the Druid has is a plant. I don't see that coming up too often. I think in all the games I've played there was once instance where I didn't use either spell I had prepared in a round (it was using  a Warlock battle forge build, and I had deployed a Dispel Wand and used that for my quick, with a melee attack as my other action). Now, maybe my group and I are just weird like that, but I have a hard time seeing it as something common, or even uncommon. If it is, please let me know.

7. I would seriously argue mana is the more important currency. Decisions matter more than options, if that makes sense.  Early game, it's somewhat relevant only because everyone has an additional ten mana and can generate big threats that need answering, not solely because of some action surplus/deficit. As the game goes on, your income erodes and it becomes a matter of playing better stuff than your opponent, not more. There will be times when spare actions in the bank do nothing. And it's not like regaining tempo is all that expensive. When it comes to force push, teleport, etc., you're not breaking the bank paying two over a ring. Actions are nice, but I find them to be overrated in that regard.

What exactly do you mean by decisions? By options I mean the ability to respond to the board in an advantageous manner (Ring + Vine allows you to either build up [mana flower and whatever] or respond to an early aggression [wall or a creature or something] equally well).

What I mean by actions being the most valuable is that every spell or deployment requires both an action and mana, but (generally speaking) mana isn't required to make attacks or move zones. The only things that only require mana are upkeep costs (semi-rare outside of the mind school), voltaric shield, deflect, or vine tree playing a vine marker iirc. The value of an action, of course, is based on what it can do (which is affected by the amount of mana available), but the most valuable action you can have is your mage's full action. And I don't see trading that full action for less than 3 mana to be a fair deal.

8. I remember all the threads screaming for Warlock to be buffed because they looked at him in a vacuum and ignored his merits.

I remember those threads too. I also remember piousflea winning the first tournament I believe with a Warlock.

The problem is the meta ceases to be current once this is released. We have playtesters who changed it from it's original promo and felt it fit for the wild. One in particular, opined that while the card won't see play in an average competitive build, but there are avenues where it will find play. Another respected community member liked the card after playing it in certain capacities after writing it off as most have. That's my point: I can think of two archetypes where this could be the better choice but it won't likely see much play outside that. I won't say it's ****. But I didn't say it's the **** either.  I'm just not willing to call this a coaster yet.

I might be looking at it too much from a competitive standpoint. I suppose it might have value in "casual" matchups. Part of my problem with it might be that they released this instead of something to help the Warlord out a bit (like a one-handed war weapon or a new Warlord Only spell) or something besides a 2-die attack to help against Wizard's Tower (which almost always gives the win to the controlling Wizard).

[ACG]

Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.

All zone attacks have the unavoidable trait by default (rulebook pp. 23, or the codex). It does not need to be printed on the card.

[Aylin]

Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.

All zone attacks have the unavoidable trait by default (rulebook pp. 23, or the codex). It does not need to be printed on the card.

Oh thanks, I had missed that!

[Shad0w]

Do you have a source for the unavoidable on Hail of Stones? OCTGN and my physical set both have it without, and the only errata I've seen were the temples and battle fury ones.

All zone attacks have the unavoidable trait by default (rulebook pp. 23, or the codex). It does not need to be printed on the card.

Correct

[The Dude]

somebody just give shadow a damn banana already!

[Zuberi]

For saying "Correct"

I jest. I'm sure he's earned far more than he currently has. The other moderators are slacking.

[IndyPendant]

I think I'm going to have to eat my own words on this card; I've insulted it rather strongly in at least two posts so far, but after some thought and a little playtime, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as my initial assessment.  I've added it to my Priestess deck, with an early play of:

Turn 1: (20) Move and cast Battle Forge in my square.  Observe opponent's action: if he casts mana-building cards, then QC Temple of Asyra in NC during final QC phase.  If he looks to be using a rush strategy, do not QC.  (The rest of this example assumes he is not rushing me; if he is, the book just plays out as a standard survive-to-midgame style, no Temple or Amulet used.)

Turn 2: (2+10=12) 1 mana banked on Temple.  Deploy Meditation Amulet from Forge.  FC use Amulet, QC Harmonize Temple.

Turn 3: (8+10=18) 3 mana banked on Temple, which Deploys Knight.  Deploy Enchanter's Ring (or whatever) from Forge.  FC use Amulet, QC Friendly Enchantment (my favourite is Divine Protection).  You end the round with 9 mana.

From Turn 4 on, assuming you get to keep your Amulet, you just FC for 3 mana.  Bring out Enchanter's Ring and Ring of Asyra, and you are (in theory) operating with *18* mana and three actions a turn!  You can easily bring out a creature and enchant it 4 turns out of 5.  My build includes some great equipment, such as two Mage Wands and a Staff of Asyra, so if my opponent Dissolves the Amulet...either way, it's served its purpose.

In the two main games I've played with it, I got to keep it in the first, and it was Dissolved early on the second.  But the fact that it was Dissolved just tells me it was a useful card, or it wouldn't have been targeted.  One issue that came up: I'm thinking about adding a Rouse the Beast to my deck, so the first Knight can Guard on Turn 3.

Some other uses for the Meditation Amulet:
--Cast it with Lair first turn, to start gaining 3 mana on turn 2+.  (Downside: can't Deploy a pet Wolf, unfortunately.)  Can't do that with a Moonglow Amulet.
--Druid and Necromancer and their multiple Spawnpoints, of course.

Note that I'm not saying the Amulet is overpowered or anything.  There are too many relatively easy ways to counter it.  But I am retracting my "What is this garbage?!?" initial reaction! ; )  It has its uses.

[jacksmack]

Now we are on to something.

Vs an agressive opponent you might have to have the Forge deploy an armor (6 mana) round 2 in order to negate burst damage.

Then you QC amulet and FA meditate.

You can still deploy from Temple next round - and here you ofc harmonize it so you can do so every round while meditating and Forge fills you up with gloves, leather boots and cape (if needed).


Imagine the amulet gave 6 mana per turn??? then it wouldnt be knights you summoned every turn from round 3, then it would be 21 mana angels....