What do you think about Ballista?

[sIKE]

Just to let everyone know, I am putting on the Devils advocate hat here....

<Hat>
The meta is easily beatable if you recognize it and adapt to it. Is it OP in a different mage's hand? I will argue that in combination with the Wizards Tower it is very over powering. Playing as a Warlord, I have them chopped down so fast that I plan them now as a one shot piece.

As for the argument that the opponent has to spend actions and creatures to take one or two down. So? If you want to focus damage only on the mage (the major meta) but can't, doesn't make the Ballista over powered, just annoying as it takes you away from your strategy.

New players have to learn. The Force Push though Wall of Thorns (no armor) is quite deadly (even more so than the Ballista) and is only two actions (three if you need to dissolve the armor), is extremely cheap and actions wise and can end a game so quickly as to be breath taking. Should we nerf this combo too?

To put 4 Ballista in a Wiz book takes 16 spellbook points. It takes 32 mana and 2 complete rounds deploy and 3 to utilize. The main problem people seem to have is how fast they come online.

</Hat>

You might argue more than any thing else a mana cost increase is needed. At a 8 mana cost they are cheap to deploy, what if the cost were 11 instead? The other stats stay the same. How about a level increase from 2 to 3? Non War book cost would go up to 24 points and once again the other stats stay the same.

[Fentum]

Sike, I like your new hat.   

My purely personal view is that spell level is almost irrelevant in these discussions. If four ballistae is your bag, you put that in the book first and build from there. Plenty left for a few basic counters, a secondary gang, etc.

[Wiz-Pig]

Has anyone considered the effect of changing the casting range to 0-0?

[baronzaltor]

My initial thought when I first saw it was that it'd be interesting for its attack to only be able to target Conjurations. between itself and Arkiro's Hammer it would create the theme that the main function of War Machines is Anti-Conjuration devices  and create a niche for it in War School (breaking down walls, blowing up temples, spawn points, totems, altars, death locks, wizard towers, outposts, etc).  Arkiro's Hammer would then be the longer range, more expensive version which also includes a creature hitting zone attack while ballista would be a cheaper version that was only exclusively conjuration control.

Another thing worth pointing out about Ballista is that Reverse Attack stands a good chance of making a Ballista 1-shot itself on a decent roll due to its own heavy pierce rating. 

[Fentum]

My initial thought when I first saw it was that it'd be interesting for its attack to only be able to target Conjurations. between itself and Arkiro's Hammer it would create the theme that the main function of War Machines is Anti-Conjuration devices  and create a niche for it in War School (breaking down walls, blowing up temples, spawn points, totems, altars, death locks, wizard towers, outposts, etc).  Arkiro's Hammer would then be the longer range, more expensive version which also includes a creature hitting zone attack while ballista would be a cheaper version that was only exclusively conjuration control.

Another thing worth pointing out about Ballista is that Reverse Attack stands a good chance of making a Ballista 1-shot itself on a decent roll due to its own heavy pierce rating.

Reverse is ok but I don't fancy carrying four of the little buggers!

[Moonglow]

A thematic shift could be for the ballista to need to be targeted in a zone before it strikes - so it would have an aim marker that's placed in the upkeep phase - which would make it less effective against creatures who can clear the area before it's launched.  Multiple ballista would still be strong, but not the instant kills they can be now.

I do agree with someone's earlier post cautioning single card tweaks - usually cards are tested in a larger game space than we have access to, so there might well be a range of balancing strategies coming in future expansions.  This doesn't mean that cards should be allowed to unbalance the existing system, but tweaks in isolation seem a little fraught.

At the same time, never underestimate the ingenuity of the human mind when it comes to making something do something it wasn't designed for
 

[ChimpZilla]

Every other turret in the game is Unique. I'd start there and test it.

[sIKE]

Do that and it is practically useless.

[ChimpZilla]

Maybe? Have you tested that?

[Charmyna]

If ballista is made unique, its still a very efficient way of dealing damage compared to creatures or attack spells. And what Jacksmack posted earlier still is the biggest problem I have with ballista:

@Charmyna
I have played 2 Ballista against your build several times BN(before the nerf). Really didn't do much. I do think that it is powerful, but as I have argued, I don't think too powerful. I think you fireballed one plus a BG took it out after it fired one time. You then did the same the next round on the other one, so for 16 mana I only got two shots off total(one shot each). Now if I were to play two more, that is the spell book max. If an opponent let that happen then that would be a mistake on their part. I don't think that it should be War only, however I think it should be a bit less powerful for a non-war Mage. I think we talked about a creature for the Warlord that would add load tokens (like the Clerics for the Priestess) to speed firing up. Maybe a reduction in dice or piercing maybe in order, but then they are not scary at all, as I think that the idea of them being out in multiples should be the point (board control) and force the other mage to counter.

A guy spend 8 mana on Ballista and shoots it once vs the enemey. Opponent spends 8 mana on fireball and presumably atleast 1 more action on finishing off the ballista.
Who gained momentum here?

This right here is one of the key aspects of how you win games in MW. Present enough threats to your opponent he is forced to spend actions and mana on. More actions and/or mana than you spend on putting the threat into play that is.
And dont forget... ballista still did 5 dice of damage with pierce +3 - whereas the opponent did 0 damage.

Unlike a normal creature, the ballista pays off much quicker and you can summon two in one round. Killing them quickly with whatever cant be the solution since that is mana/action inefficient and will make you loose in the long term. Even if its unique all these reasons still apply.
In the end, I fear many will feel like they need to put in 2-4 ballistae into their build (even if unique), because the card is too efficient to not play it every game.

[aquestrion]

This whole thread makes me very happy that this card is only a promo!!!

[ChimpZilla]

Charmyna: I'd love to see you test Unique on your stream because I somewhat disagree. I don't see an 8 mana investment that's tempo loss, grants 2.5 attack dice per turn, range 1-2, and melts to fire as wildly efficient. Balance that with piercing +3 and the free action and it seems more reasonable on paper than OTT. And in a vacuum, an opponent can avoid and react to it.

But that's the thing... You've demonstrated that spamming eliminates all those downsides. And the thing that was missed in the uproar over HoBS errata was the Zone Exclusive factor. Easy spamming wrestles board control over your opponents' conjurations.

Every other attack generating con in the game is either Unique, Legendary, or Epic. AW has shown an aversion to stacking and double dipping game mechanics (justifiable IMO). I could be wrong, and it may not be the only fix, but starting there seems more historically intuitive than wading in the murk of stat changes.

My $0.02.

[ringkichard]

Making overpowered cards unique is a pretty good nerf the first time you do it. But eventually you accumulate enough of them that they cross the threshold anyway.

I think it says something interesting about the game and how we percieve it that we can generally agree that 4 Batista is a very strong play, but that 1 Balista may seem very weak.

I think this says something important about Strategy and Tactics in Mage Wars.

[Fentum]

Making overpowered cards unique is a pretty good nerf the first time you do it. But eventually you accumulate enough of them that they cross the threshold anyway.

I think it says something interesting about the game and how we percieve it that we can generally agree that 4 Batista is a very strong play, but that 1 Balista may seem very weak.

I think this says something important about Strategy and Tactics in Mage Wars.

I agree, though I think it says even more about the usefulness of multiple free actions without the chance for a riposte.

I can see a time when a player has..

Ballista
Wizard's Tower
Mangonel
Trebuchet
Scorpion
etc, etc

and chains multiple free actions to cause mayhem. Unique won't help here.

I hope that we can avoid that, and for me it is the free action stacking that is the killer mechanic, not any one card in particular.

(PS I made a few of those up!)

[sIKE]

If ballista is made unique, its still a very efficient way of dealing damage compared to creatures or attack spells. And what Jacksmack posted earlier still is the biggest problem I have with ballista:

Charmyna, I know of no experienced mage that would let 2 much less 3/4 ballista last 4 rounds. You (as well as I now) are quite ruthless in chopping those things down as quick as possible. Yes the opposing mage looses actions, mana, etc, but isn't that the point?

I agree, though I think it says even more about the usefulness of multiple free actions without the chance for a riposte.

I can see a time when a player has..

Ballista
Wizard's Tower
Mangonel
Trebuchet
Scorpion
etc, etc

and chains multiple free actions to cause mayhem. Unique won't help here.

I hope that we can avoid that, and for me it is the free action stacking that is the killer mechanic, not any one card in particular.

(PS I made a few of those up!)

Pre-Nerf, Charmyna's build leveraged ToL+HoB Spamed + WT this way. It was killer. I tried Warlord + 2 Ballista as a counter. I fired the two shots the next round into the ToL did not kill it (I'm known for bad rolls on Octgn), Charmyna then kill one the same round, and then killed the 2nd one the next round. I was very dismayed. He then proceeded to kick my mages arse and I lost once again.

I at one point here on these forums said exactly the same thing about action advantages being key to winning the game. I think Padwan jumped in and disagreed. Now that I think about it, I didn't phrase things the way I meant.  The "chains multiple free actions to cause mayhem" was what I was trying to say.