What do you think about Ballista?

[Charmyna]

I know ballista is a promo. Still, it might be good if we, the players, have a deeper look into it in theory as well as in real games before its released.
Compared to creatures in that cost range, Ballista does twice the damage but can attack every other round. So on time average it seems like it does the same damage. But, you need to consider that the Ballista starts with a load token. Therefore, the round after its summoned it does twice the damage of a creature!

Here are a couple of games in which I used a ballista focused opening:
The first one is me playing a Fire Wizard against a Warlord. I summoned 4 Ballistae until round 3 whereas the Warlord used Brogan. Even though I had quite some bad rolls and the Warlord had decent rolls against the Ballistae, the damage from the ballistae combined with the wizard towers utility was too much.
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/2795140

This one was vs a BM:
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/2795732
And one against an air wizard with Grizzly+Vamp:
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/2796603

Here is a really tough game against Fentum (Air wizard). He destroyed two ballistae quickly with wizard tower + fireball. After that he pushed me through wall of thorns twice (I couldnt do anything because he had ini next round). In the end I survived with 1 life left!
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/2796757
This video somehow shows that fire+2 is an important weakness of the ballista. Still, mana and action wise its inefficient to kill ballista with fireball since the chance to not instantly kill it isnt that small. Even if you oneshot the ballista, it might had the chance to shoot once depending on Ini.

A solution might be to start with zero load tokens or to make ballista unique. One ballista is only a minor threat since you can move into its zone to avoid its damage. But stacking ballistae really hurts - especially because of the nature of the ready marker mechanic. Therefore, a solution could be to change the ready marker mechanic for all conjurations (e.g. only one conjuration may be activated before or after a friendly creatures action phase).
If ballista is made unique (and no change to ready marker mechanic), this might not solve the problem forever. In a discussion with murphy yesterday he pointed out that at some point we might have a couple of really good conjurations that are all unique (e.g. Hand of Bimshalla, Temple of Light if there are more cheap temples in the future, Wizard Tower, Ballista). Even though these conjurations are unique they can stack with other unique conjurations leading to the same problem we started with.

[Diji]

LOVE the card! It's just BEAST! However, the consensus (at least among those I have spoken and played with) seems to be that it should be unique and/or have the attack reduced to 4 dice with pierce +2. In either case, absolutely War Mage only.

In the end, Ballista is simply too effective when stacked as it is and if I were a betting man I would go all in on the prospect of the card being altered at some point before general release, but for now - as mentioned earlier...It's just BEAST!

[Fentum]

Hi Charmyna,

How do you solve a problem like Ballista?

Good summary. I'm with you on the hypothesis that the action mechanic is the possible route of a small amount of evil in an otherwise (and still) excellent system.

The 'problems' with HoB and Ballista are only evident when multiple are out, and all are acting together. Often followed by a Wizard's Tower. It's the free action stacking that's the problem.

Only allowing a single card to activate seems a bit harsh. How about only allowing a single activation of a card with the same name? You could still activate one HoB, one Ballista, etc. It would need to work such that it wouldn't be possible to activate before and then after a single creature action.

[reddawn]

I think the Free Action ready mechanic needs to be heavily restricted and monitored.  In a game like MW in which actions are king even above mana, excessive free actions should be a big red flag.

Free action cards like Hand of Bim-Shalla and others really need to be School/Class specific, so that 1. they're balanced and 2. they actually FEEL Unique as part of why you play that mage. 

I mean, I don't see a reason why a Warlock or Wizard should have access to something like HoB.  Bim-Shalla is apparently quite an important Holy School/Asyra related figure, as he's referenced in a lot of flavor texts, and thematically it doesn't make sense for any mage except a Holy one to actually have the training to use that conjuration.  Other free action producers, such as Sectarus, Fellella, etc are at least school-only and feel more interesting because of it.

Same goes for the Ballista; a WAR machine is the realm of a WAR mage and operating one should take a lot of focus, so that it's Unique. 

[DeckBuilder]

I have advocated limiting the ready marker action. But now my solution is more elegant.

New rule. During the Reset phase, only 1 Ready marker on a conjuration may be turned to Ready by each player chosen in Initiative order.

This elegantly returns HoB and ToL as printed while weakening Wizard's Tower. Future "conjurations no creatures" build with current Epics plus Altar of Peace temple is also blunted by this new rule. Currently this build would be near broken so the rule is needed.

Access vs Theme Mage limiting is another issue. Some players prefer strong themes. Others prefer the ability to create ingenious builds. The important thing is to make each mage equal via exclusive access.

[jacksmack]

I have advocated limiting the ready marker action. But now my solution is more elegant.

New rule. During the Reset phase, only 1 Ready marker on a conjuration may be turned to Ready by each player chosen in Initiative order.

This elegantly returns HoB and ToL as printed. Future conjuration only build with current Epics plus Altar of Peace temple is also blunted by this new rule. Currently this build would be near broken so the rule is needed.

Access vs Theme Mage limiting is another issue. Some players prefer strong themes. Others prefer the ability to create ingenious builds. The important thing is to make each mage equal via exclusive access.

it doesnt solve the problem with ballistas.

You can still have 2 ballistas do their thing because it takes 2 rounds to reload them anyway.
In fact im gonna argue that you can still do 3 ballistas.... put down 2 @ once have them shoot the round after. 2 rounds later both are ready and has 2 load tokens. Now you put down the third and do pew pew with QC and AP and 3 ballistas. Load tokens are automatical from here, and you must use brain when choosing which 1 of the 3 to reayd first... the second 1 is obvious (the 1 that actually HAS targets to hit the current round).

[DeckBuilder]

Yeah. Ballista should not start with a load token. Then it would not make Akiro Hammer so poor in comparison.

There is a danger of fixing in a vacuum. Meta context is key. For example, I have proposed "Dwarf Engineer" that full action adds or removes 1 token from a conjuration in its zone (mana, damage, load etc not a marker like ready). If that exists then Ballista coming in with 0 load would be fine. It would also strengthen creature spawnpoints. So it is dangerous to discuss 1 card alone.

I was focusing on the ready action marker mechanic and Mage exclusivity issues, broader than one card. Fixing one card does not solve the bigger problem.

[sIKE]

@Charmyna
I have played 2 Ballista against your build several times BN(before the nerf). Really didn't do much. I do think that it is powerful, but as I have argued, I don't think too powerful. I think you fireballed one plus a BG took it out after it fired one time. You then did the same the next round on the other one, so for 16 mana I only got two shots off total(one shot each). Now if I were to play two more, that is the spell book max. If an opponent let that happen then that would be a mistake on their part. I don't think that it should be War only, however I think it should be a bit less powerful for a non-war Mage. I think we talked about a creature for the Warlord that would add load tokens (like the Clerics for the Priestess) to speed firing up. Maybe a reduction in dice or piercing maybe in order, but then they are not scary at all, as I think that the idea of them being out in multiples should be the point (board control) and force the other mage to counter.

[jacksmack]

@Charmyna
I have played 2 Ballista against your build several times BN(before the nerf). Really didn't do much. I do think that it is powerful, but as I have argued, I don't think too powerful. I think you fireballed one plus a BG took it out after it fired one time. You then did the same the next round on the other one, so for 16 mana I only got two shots off total(one shot each). Now if I were to play two more, that is the spell book max. If an opponent let that happen then that would be a mistake on their part. I don't think that it should be War only, however I think it should be a bit less powerful for a non-war Mage. I think we talked about a creature for the Warlord that would add load tokens (like the Clerics for the Priestess) to speed firing up. Maybe a reduction in dice or piercing maybe in order, but then they are not scary at all, as I think that the idea of them being out in multiples should be the point (board control) and force the other mage to counter.

A guy spend 8 mana on Ballista and shoots it once vs the enemey. Opponent spends 8 mana on fireball and presumably atleast 1 more action on finishing off the ballista.
Who gained momentum here?

This right here is one of the key aspects of how you win games in MW. Present enough threats to your opponent he is forced to spend actions and mana on. More actions and/or mana than you spend on putting the threat into play that is.
And dont forget... ballista still did 5 dice of damage with pierce +3 - whereas the opponent did 0 damage.

[Charmyna]

@Charmyna
I have played 2 Ballista against your build several times BN(before the nerf). Really didn't do much. I do think that it is powerful, but as I have argued, I don't think too powerful. I think you fireballed one plus a BG took it out after it fired one time. You then did the same the next round on the other one, so for 16 mana I only got two shots off total(one shot each). Now if I were to play two more, that is the spell book max. If an opponent let that happen then that would be a mistake on their part. I don't think that it should be War only, however I think it should be a bit less powerful for a non-war Mage. I think we talked about a creature for the Warlord that would add load tokens (like the Clerics for the Priestess) to speed firing up. Maybe a reduction in dice or piercing maybe in order, but then they are not scary at all, as I think that the idea of them being out in multiples should be the point (board control) and force the other mage to counter.

A guy spend 8 mana on Ballista and shoots it once vs the enemey. Opponent spends 8 mana on fireball and presumably atleast 1 more action on finishing off the ballista.
Who gained momentum here?

This right here is one of the key aspects of how you win games in MW. Present enough threats to your opponent he is forced to spend actions and mana on. More actions and/or mana than you spend on putting the threat into play that is.
And dont forget... ballista still did 5 dice of damage with pierce +3 - whereas the opponent did 0 damage.

You are so right. It is the key aspect of how to win games and it is why ballista is too good.

[ringkichard]

The real question is,  "Would a creature with Ballistia's stats and rules be more powerful, or less?"

It feels like Ballistia got a mana discount for not being a creature, which seems wrong. I mean, compare Ballistia to Goblin Slinger.

[jacksmack]

2 ballista and 1 fireball takes Down a grizzly or necro vamp on average in 1 turn.

Its 24 mana where as the opponent spent 16 or 17 - hence so its 7 or 8 more.

Its also 3 actions to one.... But the fact remains in this made up scenario that enemy is pretty much forced to spend 2 actions and X mana (likely higher than 7) to get equal Things.
Unless he chooses to focus on something else. In the case of that i then the ballista combo only spend 8 mana and 2 actions more than its opponent and it will have a stable source of damage every second round.

If the vamp had bearstrength (dont they all?) then you can add 5 mana in favor of the ballista combo.


Its a made up scenario i know. But with normal actions its alot harder to focus stuff Down because enemy can move / teleport / guard / heal / etc / etc.
With the fast actions ballista provide the only solution is to predict what your opponent will do with them ballistas when you see them dropped as last thing in a round where YOU have initiative.
And if you dont have a nullify on you, then he can always jinx you and then there is for a matter of fact absolutely nothing you can do from preventing an action (fireball?) + 2 ballista on whatever target he Desires.

[Fentum]

I just played two matches vs Charmyna and his 'four ballistae zero creatures' start. I used a general Air Wizard Assassin / Big Two / Control book.

I got completely whipped first time.

Second time we played through using the same spellbooks. We played 'competitively' but together in terms of sharing a few ideas to counter and so on. Allowing spell reselection a couple of times as it was a learning game.

THAT game I took Charmyna's mage to 31/32 damage, but he got me the next turn.

I played against four ballistae several times before. That, plus these two sessions make me think that something is very wrong with that promo card as it stands. Sorting the free actions would eb my shout. Not the Warlord theme.

[jacksmack]

I just played two matches vs Charmyna and his 'four ballistae zero creatures' start. I used a general Air Wizard Assassin / Big Two / Control book.

I got completely whipped first time.

Second time we played through using the same spellbooks. We played 'competitively' but together in terms of sharing a few ideas to counter and so on. Allowing spell reselection a couple of times as it was a learning game.

THAT game I took Charmyna's mage to 31/32 damage, but he got me the next turn.

I played against four ballistae several times before. That, plus these two sessions make me think that something is very wrong with that promo card as it stands. Sorting the free actions would eb my shout. Not the Warlord theme.

I just want to underline the importance of playing vs the same strat several times.
Its very very hard and require tons experience to react optimal to a new threat you have not experienced before. And when you said you played against it before, it still different when a new player like charm plays it because chances are he is much more skilled than the previous opponent and he is probaly using the ballistas in a different synergy you havent seen before.

Which reminds me of a horrible game yesterday where i got my own *** handed to me by a solo cheetah in your face warlord with a promo weapon my strat certainly couldnt handle.
The Next time i see this opening (battleforge turn 1 on MY side of the board :O), i will adress the issue differently now that i have spent the day thinking this particular game through .

[Fentum]

I just played two matches vs Charmyna and his 'four ballistae zero creatures' start. I used a general Air Wizard Assassin / Big Two / Control book.

I got completely whipped first time.

Second time we played through using the same spellbooks. We played 'competitively' but together in terms of sharing a few ideas to counter and so on. Allowing spell reselection a couple of times as it was a learning game.

THAT game I took Charmyna's mage to 31/32 damage, but he got me the next turn.

I played against four ballistae several times before. That, plus these two sessions make me think that something is very wrong with that promo card as it stands. Sorting the free actions would eb my shout. Not the Warlord theme.

I just want to underline the importance of playing vs the same strat several times.
Its very very hard and require tons experience to react optimal to a new threat you have not experienced before. And when you said you played against it before, it still different when a new player like charm plays it because chances are he is much more skilled than the previous opponent and he is probaly using the ballistas in a different synergy you havent seen before.

Which reminds me of a horrible game yesterday where i got my own *** handed to me by a solo cheetah in your face warlord with a promo weapon my strat certainly couldnt handle.
The Next time i see this opening (battleforge turn 1 on MY side of the board :O), i will adress the issue differently now that i have spent the day thinking this particular game through .

Agreed. My previous 'multiple' ballista games had also been vs Charmyna, I just wanted to point out that i wasn't basing my thoughts off just a couple of games. The meta has changed  a bit since then, so it was good to see how it worked right now.

It was still a nightmare.

I guess that you COULD argue that in game 2 using the same spellbook, it could have gone either way. It's just that it seems like MUCH LESS FUN when the opponent is spamming identical engines of death. No hassle ref Charmyna here - we deliberately agreed to play Ballistae to try it out.

It's just that I have much more fun losing to him when he uses more interesting books....