Push Wars - Wizard vs Forcemaster

[cbalian]

OPTIONS:  WOULD YOU RATHER
OPTION A: Wizard Tower Jet Stream 4 + Huginn Force Push 6 = 10 mana per push/pull
OPTION B: 2 Thoughtspores w 2 Force Push 6x2 = 12 mana per push/pull
OPTION C: 2 Thoughtspores w 2 Jet Streams 4x2 = 8 mana per push pull
OPTION D: 1 Thoughtspore w Force Push 6 + 1 Thoughtspore w Jet Stream 4 = 10 mana per push/pull

I'm still pretty new to the game so up until now I've never really made much use of walls.  They intrigue me and I want to but hadn't really fit them in yet.  All the talk in the other threads about using Wall of Thorns and pushing mobs through it for damage though kind of has me wanting to try out that tactic.

In those posts they mention the Wizard pretty exclusively, Wizard Tower conjuration + Huginn Familiar doing the bulk of the pushing grunt work mainly with Jet Stream.

However here is my question...what about Forcemaster set up doing the pushing? 
Is the Wizard better set up to push mobs through walls or could the Forcemaster be a viable alternative option?

I haven't played EITHER deck so here are my considerations and comparisons I'm mulling over:

Spells:
* Jet Stream vs Force Push
** PUSH - Jet Stream has a 'chance' to push 4+ roll, Force Push is guaranteed
** Direction - Jet Stream has to be in an opposit direction, Force Push you can choose * this is important in a later question about set up and use
** Damage - Jet Stream does 2 additional dice of damage more than Force Push
** Mana - ?? Am I reading correctly if I'm pushing someone through a wall with passage attacks -
Jet Stream would cost 4 mana and
Force Push would cost 6? 
Since Jet Stream doesn't say it costs extra to push through a wall does that mean it is Free (or no extra) to do so?

Familiars/Conjurations:

Thoughtspore 0 armor 7 life No defense - Flying *spellbind* lvl 1-2 Attack OR Incantation spells
Huginn            0 armor 5 life inf defense 6+ - Flying no spellbind lvl 1-2 Incantation spells only
Wizard Tower 3 armor 7 life No defense - non Flying * spellbind * Attack spells only

Thoughtspore could cast Jet Stream OR Force Push (and flies - so the line of sight of the wall wouldn't be an issue it could see over the wall so Thoughtspore could push OR PULL something towards it if on other side of wall)

Huginn could cast Force push but can't cast Jet Stream (same flying benefits as noted above, except that Jet Stream can't pull anything through a wall just push it through)

Wizard Tower could cast Jet Stream but not Force Push (doesn't fly, so would have line of sight issues, can't 'pull' anything through a wall - also doesn't move, doesn't fly so kind of situational and things have to line up, where as Thoughtspore and Huginn both fly so could move around (if needed to adjust and no LOS issues).

SPELLBINDING - Thoughtspore and Wizard Tower both have Spellbinding so can keep casting the same spell over and over (thus saving having to use up a bunch of copies of the same spell)  Wizard tower can change spell, thoughtspore once bound can't switch spells.  Huginn - non spell bind so spell gets used up each cast and must be replaced.

So now that the considerations are in place, the tactical question of 'which is better'?

Would it be better to have 2 Thoughtspores push/pulling mobs through a wall, force push or jet streaming
OR
Would it be better to have 1 Wizard Tower Jet Streaming and Huginn Force Pushing

I am kind of liking the Thoughtspore pushing idea because 2 Thoughtspores with at least 1 having force push I think would be good because they wouldn't even need to be in or around the mob they are pushing through the wall, they could be 2 spaces away and do it and their location wouldn't matter (thus making them somewhat safer, not 100% but a bit better off)

But the Wizard Tower and Huginn are probably more difficult to kill than a thoughtspore.
Mana wise to set up is negligable 2 thoughtspores cost you 16 mana * Wizard Tower + Huginn costs you 18
mana

With 2 Force Pushes and 2 Thoughtspores you are much more likely to be able to make a wall push attack work, you lose out on 2 extra dice of damage from Jet Stream

2 Thoughtspores 'seem' like they would be more vesatile since they can move and the Wizard Tower can't, and they can fly so don't have LOS issues like Wizard tower

-- Other considerations:
If I used the wizard I would probably toss in a Whirling Spirit (or 2) which have a 50% chance to push for Free and do 4 dice.  Having 1 Whirling Spirit on each side of a Wall of Thorns seems like a possible route also and would save me some mana.  Since the push on Whirling Spirit doesn't mention extra mana to push through a wall I assume it is mana free to do so?

Poison Gas Cloud might be good with the Wizard too, a Cloud on each side of the wall to do extra damage and 'hinder' them from running 2 spaces away - out of range of my push/streams

Stonegaze Basilisk might be good with the Wizard too, ranged attacking from 2 spaces away and crippling opponents on either side of wall might come in handy since they would be restrained.

If I used the forcemaster instead I "might" toss in a Force Bash in the mix.  Would cost 11 mana so more costly but 'incapacitating' 2 creatures while pushing 1 of them through a wall seems kind of fun.  The more incapacitated stuff the better IMO, less likely to be able to fight back to mess up my pong match.

I'm a HUGE fan of Gorgon Archer + Stonegaze Basilisk combo (that has won me several games) so kind of leaning towards the wizard for that additional option

But I can see some fun options with the Forcemaster and think flying spellbind mage wands are always fun (plus you can have multiple out).  I usually use Thoughtspores to just fly around and put everything to sleep as soon as it is summoned so the opponent can't do much while I kill the mage, but having a more active roll for little spore buddies seems like a fun way to go too.

- as usual I rambled a bit here, sorry.  That is why I moved the main question to the top (it was actually 3/4 of the way down if it seems out of context it is a little). 

[Fentum]

This is so funny.

I have been playing many games versus Charmyna and others, and have tried and fought against multiple push strategies.

Thus far, I have found that the best effect is when I hold the force push and jet steam and just use it casually, with the wall of thorns, as unexpected damage. Huggins and Thoughtspores are way too vulnerable in reality vs a good player.

Theory crafting a Forcemaster with two Thoughtspores is cool. The FMbuffs up to be a melee threat whilst the TS carry force push and jet stream. In practice, I have found them just too easy to kill. I have been running one with force push and one with jet stream. Sometimes I harmonise them, but I think that is a mistake.

Huginns gets annihilated immediately on being deployed. If anyone can help me avoid that outcome, I would love to hear it. Extra life is just eaten up.

Wizard's Tower for me is the best route . If only a FM could take it. THAT would be crazy.

Also, I have never yet pushed ANYTHING through a wall other than the enemy Mage. I run dissolve and especially Explode to facilitate that.

I actually have a book where the only creatures are the Whirling Spirits and all the damage is done by pushing through walls and into external walls. It is quite a fun book to run.

There are three major problems with the wall push strategy as I see it...

It can be complex to execute well, requiring a lot of positional board play and multiple card timings.

A book with counters to flying cause big issues vs vulnerable Huggins and TS.

EAGLECLAW BOOTS. Everyone in my meta is running double pairs as they look so nice and shiny.

For all these reasons, I now run push thorns as an 'opportunistic damage top up' section of my books.

It is a cool theme, so I would love to hear all thoughts on how to run it more effectively.

[reddawn]

Walls are mainly good for blocking LoS.  As you get more experienced with the game, you'll find that blocking LoS during the first QC phase stops a lot of nasty tricks and helps even the playing field in matchups in which your mage can't out-gun the opposing mage at range.  For these reasons, I've found walls to be particularly good with the Beastmasters, since they doesn't have easy access to attack spells, and the Johktari BM also doesn't need LoS to place her Wounded Prey token too.

As far as Pushing is concerned, it's unrealistic that you're going to be able to FP something over and over without your opponent stopping you.  And even with a Familiar, the amount of mana you need is pretty significant, leaving you unable to do much else.  Force Push is a fine card, but making it into the backbone of a build doesn't seem worth the risk when there are lots of ways to work around it.

If you really want to do it though, you might as well go Forcemaster.  Her Pull can't Push creatures though walls, but it can push creatures onto traps, which you should consider using as a way to compliment Passage Attack attacks.

[cbalian]

Oh yes I forgot about traps!  I know the the caltrops don't do much damage but saying I could actually pull off a push/pull strategy a caltrops on each side of the wall could be used over and over.

Does a teleport trap need line of sight or 'if I need it' can it teleport something on the other side of a LOS blocked wall?

I guess the other traps are good damage to mana ratio like the fire or spike one but not as much of a fan as the one time use ones, but I do run them occassionally and pushing stuff into traps, especially through a wall into a trap seems good.

[Sailor Vulcan]

This gave me a really good idea for a build similar to one I've already made and started testing. I'll probably be posting both  in about a week or two. Thanks!

[Sailor Vulcan]

And just a hint, traps are one use. The only trap ill be using is teleport trap, since according to the text on the card it sounds like it can send things through walls without LoS.

[Doma0997]

And just a hint, traps are one use. The only trap ill be using is teleport trap, since according to the text on the card it sounds like it can send things through walls without LoS.

As i don't believe it specifies you have to target the ending zone, you would be correct. Yay divine intervention style. Well, with the added restriction of a two zone maximum.

[Stormmaster]

Thanks for the advice all.  I played this push war out as the Wizard this weekend and it was quite successful.  So far my Wizard is undefeated regardless of what build I have played him as (earth, air).  So this adds a bit of flexibility to his already awesome set of abilities.  Multiple win conditions and damage mechanics are great to add options and be able to counter various other builds.

The Wizard Tower is such an awesome card and fits well in whatever strat.  Here in particular for pushing mobs around.