Defense + Block

[Fentum]

I know while playing the game...I will naturally know the rules without thinking about them......but when asked a rules question about the game.....Its like I have never even seen a card before. 

That is brilliant. So true. Happens to me all the time. And that shocked face is perfectly apt.

[Shad0w]

Who would like a poll to see what side is correct? 

[DarthDadaD20]

I would just like an answer please great almighty Shad0w.

(You all owe me....making me be nice to Shad0w......)

I am going to assume I'm right until I hear otherwise anyhow.....thats just how I roll. 

[Shad0w]

But but polls are fun 

[ringkichard]

I know that when I've played with Block, or considered it conceptually, I've thought about it as if it had something like the autonomous ability, like Dancing Scimitar, and therefore would unaffected by conditions on the creature it's attached to. This isn't spelled out like that in the rules, obviously, but it seems like we all have the same natural expectation for the card.

Why would stunning my wolf prevent the magical protective bubble from working? But obviously rules are separate from theme.

[sIKE]

I always thought that if it was a creature that the controller of spell the mage was would matter there. If it is the mage that is Stunned, then it would be because his mind is so powerful while incapacitated that he is still allowed to cast non-attack spells.


AKA Block is not an innate Defense of the creature, but is a magical augmentation placed upon him by his controller.

[cbalian]

hmm interesting...Maybe I've been playing it wrong but my friend and I assumed that block was "mandatory reveal" enchant and superceded any other rules in play.  We were thinking if you get targeted you have to reveal it and follow the enchant rules, and card rules over rule standard in play rules.

[DarthDadaD20]

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^Because Reasons^ Not overthinking it.....just reading the card text...it works. Shad0w is just messing with me. This was made in his great honor..... Like a sort of "Rule Dance"

[sIKE]

mmm ANSI art!

[DarthDadaD20]

Just pray it pleases the great and almighty Shad0w! 

[Tacullu64]

I always thought that if it was a creature that the controller of spell the mage was would matter there. If it is the mage that is Stunned, then it would be because his mind is so powerful while incapacitated that he is still allowed to cast non-attack spells.


AKA Block is not an innate Defense of the creature, but is a magical augmentation placed upon him by his controller.

So is Force Sword but it would still be affected by stun.

Full disclosure. I have always played it like everyone is suggesting, now I'm wondering if I was playing wrong.

[Moonglow]

Sorry I wasn't too sure what the final answer was... Only one defense can be used per attack, so I take it in the op he could choose to use the knights built in defense,  essentially saving the block for a more serious attack. Or could go, heck I can't take the risk, I need to reveal block?

However obviously ccan't roll for defense,  fail an whip out the block as a backup...

D_{I searched the rules forum and the FAQ for an answer to this question, because it seems quite basic and I expect it has been asked and answered, but I couldn't find it. So here goes.}
tl;dr: Does a successful use of Knight of Westlock's 8+ defense allow me to skip past revealing a face down Block?

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I control a Knight of Westlock with a face down Block enchantment attached. My opponent attacks my Knight with his Wizard's Arcane Zap. If the Knight's 8+ defense ability is successful, does the Block enchantment still get revealed?

Block says,

When this creature is attacked, you must reveal Block during the avoid attack step. Block counts as a defense, and the attack is avoided. Then destroy Block. If the attack is unavoidable, destroy Block without effect.

The relevant rules in the "When can you reveal" sidebar say that an enchantment can be revealed,

"At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell. Example: After the Avoid Attack Step of an attack, you could reveal the Rhino Hide enchantment on your creature to reduce the amount of damage it will take from that attack."

Since the card says that block is revealed during step 2, I assume that is an exception to the usual rule that enchantments are revealed at the end of each step? Is "at the end" of a step "during" that step?

Working on the assumption that Block is revealed during step 2, and not at the end, do the rules tell us what order the effects are resolved in?
Since the Knight is my creature, can I chose in which order to resolve the effects?

Suppose I chose to resolve the Knight's 8+ defense first, and it is successful.
The rules for attack step 2 (Avoid Attack) say,

"The defender may now attempt to avoid an attack by using a Defense. Important: The defender must decide whether to use a Defense (see “Defenses” page 24) before the attacker proceeds to the next step and rolls the dice. If the attack is avoided, skip to Step 5: Additional Strikes.

Do I skip to Step 5 without continuing the rest of Step 2? If so, have I avoided revealing my Enchantment?

--

The Defenses sidebar on page 24 is a little confusing, because it seems like it's talking about both defenses like Cobra Reflexes and Single Use Enchantments like Block. This is even more confusing because we sometimes call both types of enchantment "defenses", because a revealed Block says it, "counts as a defense."

The sidebar seems to be talking about the kind of defenses given by Deflection Bracers and Force Sword, but does contain the line:

"Important: A creature can never use more than one Defense against a single attack (even if it has multiple mandatory enchantments that are all revealed when it is attacked!). You must choose only one of the available Defenses to use each time the creature is Attacked."

Do the rules consider the face down Block enchantment a Defense? If my Knight of Westlock were Stunned, it would not be able to use it's 8+ defense. Would it be able to use the Block attached to it? If it were unable to benefit from Block, would the enchantment be revealed anyway, just as if it were attacked by a unavoidable spell? If I chose to use the 8+ defense and it fails, am I unable to use the Block's defense, even if it must be revealed?

I know how I'd play all this if I weren't examining it closely: I would trigger the mandatory Block when the Knight is attacked and chose not to use the optional 8+ defense, which would preserve it for later. If the knight were Stunned, I would have assumed Block works anyway (though now I'm not sure).

But, according to the rules, can I use a Defense ability on a creature before the Block Enchantment has its mandatory trigger set-off, and thereby skip using it?

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P.S.  I was hoping that the ruling on the interaction between Reverse Attack and Block might offer some insight into this, but Reverse Attack isn't actually a defense, so it doesn't (potentially) end Step 2, it just redirects the attack (per the FAQ), then proceeds with the rest of the steps as normal.

[Alex319]

Force Sword is not affected by stun. The card says that the defense is unaffected by conditions on the creature.

Since Block is a mandatory reveal enchantment, you must reveal it if able. If you want to use a different defense on the attack, you can choose not to pay the reveal cost of Block, and it will be destroyed without effect. You cannot save the Block for a future attack.

[Shad0w]

Alex goes and spoils the fun. 

[DarthDadaD20]