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Author Topic: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions  (Read 40446 times)

The Dude

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2013, 04:23:18 PM »
There are many more people that think it is OP as well...
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MrSaucy

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2013, 12:24:37 AM »
There are many more people that think it is OP as well...

If anything I consider ToL more OP than Battle Fury. Then again, arguments over which cards are and aren't OP seem like a waste of time to me. Even if a card in MW is OP everybody can still include said OP card in their spellbook.
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Paleblue

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2013, 01:51:28 AM »
Many people think BF is OP? Never heard much complaint about BF to be honest. Powerful card, but predictable.

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2013, 02:55:09 AM »
Yeah, at least with newer players I've spoken with (just like ToL), people think the card is too powerful, especially when paired with pump effects.
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Tacullu64

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2013, 12:53:25 PM »
Here are a couple of links from previous priestess threads. Kinda interesting in the context of this thread.

From March of this year.

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=9540.0

From May of this year.

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12237.0

Texan85

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #110 on: July 02, 2013, 12:08:11 AM »
So Origins 2013 is over. At least 2/3 of the Tournament of Champions builds ran large numbers of Hands of Bimshalla plus Temple of Light, and the undefeated winning build (Steve Walters priestess) used 6x Hand and 3x Temple.

---
So here's what is interesting about a Temple Build. The Hand of Bimshalla is only mildly overpowered by itself. The temple of light is worthless without Hands (you'll never get enough Dawnbreakers to buff it). However, the combo of Hand plus ToL proved to be absolutely over the top overpowered.

I am of the opinion that Mage Wars needs more strong combos, not less. However, Hand+ToL is not the right model to base them on, for the following reasons:
- Hand and Temple are both quick spells. You can have 3 hands + ToL and roll a 4 dice ranged attack on Round 2. This is far too fast of a combo, compared to how long it takes to get creatures or equipment out.
- Hand and Temple do not reward an opponent for trying to interrupt the combo. At 5 mana and level 1, it is easy to replace destroyed Hands. Temple is even worse. If your Temple attacks, then dies, recasting ToL lets you get a 2nd temple attack off on the same round! Ironically, killing the temple actually INCREASES its damage output.

However, I am all for combo cards being stronger. They just need limitations. Any combination of the following will work:
1) requires time (every-upkeep-phase effects)
2) requires map control (must control X outposts, Y zone exclusives, etc)
3) requires specific creatures (all soldiers gain X. Requires an Angel, a Knight, and 2 Clerics)
4) requires another card type (effect multiplied by number of temples, of walls, of mana Conjurations, etc.)
5) requires specific "combo points"

Some hypothetical examples:
-----
(1, 3) Mithril forge - generates Blade tokens each round and after X tokens gives a +Piercing or + melee bonus to Soldiers.

(2,3,4) Temple of Protection - Any time an attack is declared against a friendly creature within 0-2 range and LoS, you may pay 2 mana to use Temple of Protection as a defense. (d12+X) 10+, where X = number of Clerics you control.

(1,2,3) Idol of Desecration - Every upkeep phase, gain a Desecration token for every zone that contains a Demon creature you control. When a friendly Demon creature enters play, you may spend 9 Desecration tokens to teleport him into a zone with any other Demon creature you control, and activate his action marker.

(1,5) Hive - Generates an Insect token every round.
Thousand Stings - Attack spell. You must pay 2 Insect tokens as part of the casting cost. High damage zone Poison attack.
Insect Swarm - Enchantment. You must pay 3 Insect tokens as part of the reveal cost. Inflicts Poison damage every round. When target creature is destroyed, you may immediately cast and reveal Insect Swarm for no cost on any other creature in the same zone.
Hive Queen - Creature. Unique. You must pay 6 Insect tokens as part of the casting cost, but this creature does not cost mana. Generates Insect tokens every round.

(1,4) Quickened Mind - Enchant. During the Upkeep phase, gain a Thought token for each Psychic card you control. Gain a Thought token every time you cast a Psychic incantation. Maximum 6 Thought tokens. Immediately after any of your action phases, you may spend 6 Thought tokens to reset your Quick Cast marker.

(3,4) Entrench - Incantation. Until the end of the round, all your Soldier creatures gain Aegis X while Guarding, where X = the number of Walls you control.

(3,4) Malediction - Incantation, targets enemy creature. Performs an X dice Poison zone attack centered around target creature, where X is the total number of revealed Curse enchantments on the creature.

(2,4) Rain Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud, all Corporeal objects in this zone, or corporeal Walls bordering this zone, gain Flame -2 and Acid -2
Thunder Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud. Every upkeep performs a 2 dice Lightning zone attack with Flying +1
Smoke Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud. Blocks Line of Sight to or from all objects within this zone. Does not affect walls bordering this zone.
Hurricane - Unique Conjuration, Cloud. Every upkeep phase, pay 3 upkeep to perform an X dice Wind zone attack (-3 vs Clouds) against every zone containing a friendly Cloud, where X = total number of Clouds you control.


Run 3 of the cheapest wall and box the damn thing in. It's epic so he can't put more down, so wall it away. It's a mana eat, but that cannon is then DOA and to put that much into the set up the opposing Mage is going to like be hindered. Put a creature on the Hands and let TOL waste attacks

It is called Perfectly Unbslanced, when lots of peeps run TOL then everyone will counter for it, and it will be rofl stomped. Gurantee next decent tournament every serious player will prep for that build, and be ready to counter it. With snipers, walls, +conjuration damage items. And maybe a hydra to triple strike it. Or gorgon archer to lock down the enemy Mage while you focus on the hand of Bims
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 12:27:02 AM by Texan85 »
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nitrodavid

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #111 on: July 02, 2013, 12:42:47 AM »
"serious players" a large part of this thread talking about how beginners use it because it is hard to counter. its OK I get it now that we wont see a counter till after next big comp because people want to keep builds close to their chest.

 btw cheapest walls won't last long against the temple. it's attack has ethereal so it can take down fog in 1 and flame in 2 turns (remember its a free attack so of course it will hit the wall). the larger HP walls will last 2-3 turns and if they pick the best wall (usually the middle) they gain all Los back and consider how much you paid to get an extendable walk out.

now if there was a light wall (with light immune and only attacks nonliving creatures)
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Texan85

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #112 on: July 02, 2013, 01:31:24 AM »
"serious players" a large part of this thread talking about how beginners use it because it is hard to counter. its OK I get it now that we wont see a counter till after next big comp because people want to keep builds close to their chest.

 btw cheapest walls won't last long against the temple. it's attack has ethereal so it can take down fog in 1 and flame in 2 turns (remember its a free attack so of course it will hit the wall). the larger HP walls will last 2-3 turns and if they pick the best wall (usually the middle) they gain all Los back and consider how much you paid to get an extendable walk out.

now if there was a light wall (with light immune and only attacks nonliving creatures)

Yea, 2 to 4 turns to either put the Mage on the defensive and gain tempo (that thing all the arena junkie elitists love to talk about). You really fail to see the point, so what if one wall dies (a) the cannon has to shoot around 2 others, and (b) that's enough time to go after the other Mage and dump a creature in place to roflstomp the TOL and/or tag team the enemy Mage so if he ignores creatures and focuses the Mage, the creatures can keep the tempo up.

Lastly, id rather demolish the support temples, and drop my spawn point and let the extra mana power up my advantage in tempo.


This is the point of a well rounded spell book.

And I believe, as I have said before that these things evolve, and quite a few newbies have asked how to counter this phenomenon.
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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #113 on: July 02, 2013, 01:54:42 AM »
I would hesitate before calling other people "newbies". Your answer to Temple was boxing it in. Telling Nitro that he fails to see why you would waste three actions boxing something in, and then giving faulty reasoning isn't the way to go about things either.
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Shad0w

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #114 on: July 02, 2013, 01:44:56 PM »
Tempo is a term used to indicate the advantage gained when a player is able to play more or stronger cards in a shorter period of time due to efficient resource allocation.It is sometimes defined as the means by which a player gains additional options or decreases the options possessed by the opponent by means not directly pertaining to respective numbers of playable cards.
 Some forms of tempo are
Mana Acceleration -Players generally develop their mana at a set rate ; accelerants allow players to speed up this process and have quicker access to more mana. This may come in the form of additional  channeling cards put into play, and other cards that remain in play and generate mana (ie. Most spawn points and Familiars.) , or cards that generate a one-time boost in mana (Currently none in print).

Mana Drain - Conversely, mana denial cards cause opponents to lose tempo by setting back their mana development and thus limiting their options. Examples of mana denial cards Mordok's Obelisk, and Suppression Orb. 

Efficiency - Some cards have stronger effects than other cards costing the same amount of mana. For example, Gray Angel and Guardian Angel despite costing the same amount of mana, the gray angel is overall a less useful creature.  Playing efficient cards can generate tempo if they render an opponent's weaker cards irrelevant or substandard, restricting the options available to that player.

Extra Actions
- A few cards, such as spawn points, and familiars actually allow a player to take additional actions. This generates tempo in many ways, usually by granting the ability to play extra creatures or cast extras spells, or attack.

Punishment
- In some situations, it is possible to counteract tempo generated by the opponent. This generates tempo if it makes the opponent's expenditures useless and therefore inefficient. For example, a player may pay a large amount of mana to attach a powerful enchantment card to a creature or object. If that player's opponent responds by destroying the creature or object with an attack, the player who paid the enchant cost will have wasted the mana and lost tempo.


The temple build gains tempo form the free attack it makes each round and the fact it is a perceived threat. Thus most player will commit manna, creatures and actions to destroying the temples. The main problem is the is the expected response so you have played into the other players plan. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:46:41 PM by Shad0w »
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nitrodavid

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #115 on: July 02, 2013, 07:48:09 PM »
 I am just sceptical of the suggestion of spending 3 actions (or 2 for 1-2 extra mana) which is already 1 turn to avoid the temple from targeting you for 1-3 turns. so you have lost 15-23 mana to gain those turns. since the tol only cost her 9 mana it comes off as a good trade for the priest.

additionally the tower has range of 0-2 so each single wall will only defend the 2 squares directly behind it. throwing the walls to the side are a waste unless you plan to stay in those squares.
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nitrodavid

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #116 on: July 02, 2013, 09:12:37 PM »
I did the maths (probability function with armour is tedious)

an attack like hurl bolder (7d,0p)
has a 23% chance to destroy tol in 1 turn. if it is on 4 HP it has 77% chance.

 now a creature like steel claw (7d,1p)
for full and half health it has 27 and 85% respectively.

 now a high penetration creature like  slayer (4d,2p) gives 0.6% and 50% (full, half)
the same creature with +2 attack (6d,2p) gives 17% and 83%

without listing every combination I can tell you the trend if you want to have a 1 in 5 chance to 1 hit KO use the bolder. if you want to kill it in 2 or more turns get a creature or weapon with 2 or more piercing.
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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2013, 01:13:11 AM »
I did the maths (probability function with armour is tedious)

an attack like hurl bolder (7d,0p)
has a 23% chance to destroy tol in 1 turn. if it is on 4 HP it has 77% chance.

 now a creature like steel claw (7d,1p)
for full and half health it has 27 and 85% respectively.

 now a high penetration creature like  slayer (4d,2p) gives 0.6% and 50% (full, half)
the same creature with +2 attack (6d,2p) gives 17% and 83%

without listing every combination I can tell you the trend if you want to have a 1 in 5 chance to 1 hit KO use the bolder. if you want to kill it in 2 or more turns get a creature or weapon with 2 or more piercing.

This is the kind of analysis I like to see. I think Slayer is the best creature for the job, 2 of those lads can stomp conjurations and have great general health and damage.

Although hurl bolder is the most effective for a one shot, I just don't like the risk of it failing and being in a mana hole.

Sorry to ask but you seem to have the spreadsheets set up, would fireball with its burn chance be more or less effective than hurl boulder? Although it might not destroy in one turn it may be more effective in the long run due to continued damage?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 01:19:29 AM by Paleblue »

nitrodavid

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #118 on: July 03, 2013, 01:58:19 AM »
fire ball (6d,0p,4b1,11b2)
gives 22% and 76% (full half)

 with ring (7d,0p,3b1,10b2)
gives 37% and 87%

you beat me to it I was adding the burn calculator today

note this only counts the burn damage for 1 turn. I didn't have the time to add geometric progression calculator. but from my battle simulator I can tell you that each burn will have a eventual value of 3 damage I didn't include that because this was just 1 hit percentages not average damage

***EDIT: changed correction, average burn damage is 3 not 1.75
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 03:19:50 AM by nitrodavid »
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Paleblue

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2013, 02:10:27 AM »
fire ball (6d,0p,4b1,11b2)
gives 22% and 76% (full half)

 with ring (7d,0p,3b1,10b2)
gives 37% and 87%

you beat me to it I was adding the burn calculator today

note this only counts the burn damage for 1 turn. I didn't have the time to add geometric progression calculator. but from my battle simulator I can tell you that each burn will have a eventual value of 1.75 damage I didn't include that because this was just 1 hit percentages not average damage

Cheers for that information. Ring provides a considerable boost and gives you a sustained benefit (whip or more fireballs later) which is interesting.

Just so I interpret right, each potential burn a card can do on average adds 1.75 damage?