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Author Topic: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning  (Read 8555 times)

cbalian

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Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« on: June 16, 2013, 08:01:28 AM »
Looking for some advice on strategy.  I've never played the ForceMaster yet and I'm having a hard time deciding.

Is it better to:

Option A:  Use avoidance effects to not get hit at all (or as little as possible) via multiple deflects, forcefield -or-
Option B:  Not use forcefield, but use Circle of Lightning and allow small hits to go through and risk not being able to deflect

So basically the question comes down to if you had to pick ONE would you put Circle of Lightning in your deck or Forcefield?

I normally play a Wizard or Preistess so I generally hide out while my spells and creatures do the damage for me but this build of me being IN the fight has me nervous (it isn't my play style I guess).  And it seems counterproductive to put both Circle of Lightning AND Forcefield in.

And since I've never used Forcefield is it even that good of a card?  10 mana reveal cost with +2 mana upkeep seems a LOT of mana drain for 1 card.  I mean the 3 hits is great to start but after that it can only absorb 1 hit each round for 2 mana upkeep cost correct?

I wish you could "choose" to use the forcefield, like have it absorb a hit if an attack made it past your deflect roll or something.

--------------
Armor vs deflect
I figure a balance of armor + deflect is good?  Like when is it better to have armor vs to deflect a hit.  Deflect sounds good to absorb an entire hit but since it is a maybe I like armor too.

So I put 3 armor in and 4 deflect.

Can you use deflect on a spell or is it just for physical ranged/melee attacks?  Like if he tosses a lightning bolt at me and I have a deflect (that works on range) can I try to roll to deflect the lightning bolt?  I know spells that specify "direct damage" I can't deflect for sure, but regular other attack spells you can?

reddawn

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 07:23:39 PM »
Looking for some advice on strategy.  I've never played the ForceMaster yet and I'm having a hard time deciding.

Is it better to:

Option A:  Use avoidance effects to not get hit at all (or as little as possible) via multiple deflects, forcefield -or-
Option B:  Not use forcefield, but use Circle of Lightning and allow small hits to go through and risk not being able to deflect

So basically the question comes down to if you had to pick ONE would you put Circle of Lightning in your deck or Forcefield?

I normally play a Wizard or Preistess so I generally hide out while my spells and creatures do the damage for me but this build of me being IN the fight has me nervous (it isn't my play style I guess).  And it seems counterproductive to put both Circle of Lightning AND Forcefield in.

And since I've never used Forcefield is it even that good of a card?  10 mana reveal cost with +2 mana upkeep seems a LOT of mana drain for 1 card.  I mean the 3 hits is great to start but after that it can only absorb 1 hit each round for 2 mana upkeep cost correct?

I wish you could "choose" to use the forcefield, like have it absorb a hit if an attack made it past your deflect roll or something.

--------------
Armor vs deflect
I figure a balance of armor + deflect is good?  Like when is it better to have armor vs to deflect a hit.  Deflect sounds good to absorb an entire hit but since it is a maybe I like armor too.

So I put 3 armor in and 4 deflect.

Can you use deflect on a spell or is it just for physical ranged/melee attacks?  Like if he tosses a lightning bolt at me and I have a deflect (that works on range) can I try to roll to deflect the lightning bolt?  I know spells that specify "direct damage" I can't deflect for sure, but regular other attack spells you can?

Yes, Deflect works on any attack, as long as that attack doesn't have the "unavoidable" trait.  Spells that give the unavoidable trait are easily the Forcemaster's biggest nemesis, because it allows attacks to get past all of her standard Block/Reverse Attack defenses.

This is where Forcefield comes in; it is a very good card, because it can stop even those unavoidable attacks.  The problem is that once it gets reduced to canceling a single attack per turn, keeping it around becomes a lot more situational.  At that point, it's pretty much up to the Forcemaster player to decide whether or not it's worth the upkeep cost, and that kind of decision really only comes from experience.

Also, as a word of advice in terms of using Forcefield, feel free to cast it face-down when you get the chance, but don't flip it until you really feel you're in trouble.  It's really much more of a more expensive, superior Block than a persistent piece of "armor" you should be lugging around at full cost all game.

In terms of choosing a defense or a damage barrier, definitely go with an additional defense.  Damage barriers are very expensive to enchant a mage with, and don't offer adequate dice for such a cost.  If you're having trouble in terms of getting surrounded or hindered, consider some zone attack spells like Electrify or Ring of Fire instead.

I would also recommend some cheap ways of giving your mage armor; the novice armors are good for that purpose, and be sure to pick one of the heavier 6-cost armors too.  Deflect is good, but every mage should really carry a bit of armor to fall back on, should your defense rolls fail.  Also, unlike enchantments, equipment can be protected with Nullify, so armor in equipment form is more of a sure thing.

Probably the best piece of advice I can really give, though, is that you should really stay out of attack range when you can.  The Forcemaster is very good at dishing out dice, but against someone who is familiar at dealing with defenses, defenses become more of a mana tax rather than a reliable way to defend yourself. 
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cbalian

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 10:12:37 PM »
Thank you so much for the advice.  I will look forward to my first game with her next week.  I'm pretty sure she won't be my favorite mage but wanted to give her a go.

reddawn

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 12:16:23 AM »
No problem, hope your come out on top. 

Just cause I'm nice (and kinda bored) here's some in-game advice too:

1. Pack 2 Forcefields.  If your Forcefield gets Seeking Dispel-ed, it's imperative that you have a back-up.

2. When considering spells to bind to your Thoughtspores, use cheap ones that you can cast early and often over more expensive ones.  I personally have had a lot of success with Invisible Fist; it's pretty cost-efficient and lets you punish creatures that get too close and provides some much needed dice early game.  Use Arc Lightning instead if you opponent summons an Iron Golem (those really suck to deal with as FM if you aren't prepared, and are a serious pain even if you are).  A good tactic in general is to keep your Thoughtspore 2 zones away from your mage, so it's close enough to quick-cast the Fist/AL if you need it, but far enough away not to go down too easily. 

3. After your first Thoughtspore dies (it's gonna happen once your opponent realizes how important they are), I highly recommend summoning another one, probably with Minor Heal if you've taken a good bit of damage.  If your opponent isn't far enough ahead to finish the job, multiple minor heals, while pretty annoying and cheesy, can really get you back in the game if your opponent doesn't nuke the Spore down quickly.

4. The Invisible Stalker is a great card, but it's not as untouchable as the name might suggest if you don't play it right.  Try to make sure it's the very last creature you attack with every round; that way, apart from expensive zone attack spells that ignore invisibility, your opponent will have a very difficult time dealing with it.

5.  Consider the defensive uses of Force Pull.  The Forcemaster doesn't have the kind of creature support other mages do, and you'll find that it can be hard to attack without your mage taking a lot of damage or one of your Spores getting nailed and quite possibly dying to a heavy attack spell like Fireball or Hurl Boulder.  A good tactic I like to use is to activate a Spore, move, cast Fist, and then Quickcast Force Pull to get it out of range at the end of its action phase.  It's kind of like boxing, but with your brain :P

You can do something similar with Psyloks, but instead keep the Psylok a zone behind your mage and then Force Pull it in at the beginning of its action phase, and then attack with it.  Also, don't be afraid to guard with a Psylok if you need to; better your brain pet than you.  Yes, Psyloks aren't terribly impressive, but the Forcemaster is starved for extra actions more than any other mage, and Psyloks help keep her action count up.

6.  Finally, put a wall with a Passage Attack trait in your book.  Summoning a wall and then pushing a mage through with Force Push can be a nasty surprise, and a good way of separating the opposing mage from any guard he or she might have.  It can be a nail in the coffin when you really need it, or a good way of breaking Line of Sight if you're afraid of getting killed with a nuke (Wall of Fire covers both purposes, but is more expensive than Wall of Pikes, so it's really a matter of preference).


Ok, that's all the in-game advice in my brain for now.  The Forcemaster is my second-favorite mage after the Warlock, but that's more because I like her odd creatures and witty playstyle, which is a break from the Warlock's all-out, straight-forward aggression.  Stay open to the brain-mage, and you might find that you like her more than you anticipated  :).
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cbalian

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 07:58:27 AM »
Wow thanks red!  Maybe I will like her, and I've made a couple tweaks to the spell book.

I really like the idea of the floating mage wands (thoughtspores) so that is one interesting thing with her.

Do you think it is worth giving them any armor like rhino hide/aegis etc or just toss spells as much as you can and summon a new one when they die?

I'm at work so I don't have my cards but I thought ALL the mind creatures are either invisible or tagged as "pest" so I can't guard with psylocks can I?  Maybe I'm wrong.

For healing (mid to late game if I am taking damage) I generally use Vamparism, since I plan to actually be hitting with my mage this time.  And regrowth + regrowth belt (which I know they don't stack but in case one gets dispelled).  I'm also debating the tree that lets you use a quick action to heal 3 dice + 1 condition each turn, but the tree can get cut down so not sure.

reddawn

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 01:37:07 PM »
Woops, you're right about pest.  Kinda.  You could guard with it, but it wouldn't really do much.  I don't remember why I guarded with that Psylok that one time then...

...Oh I remember now.  I guarded with the Psylok so that it would lose flying while behind a Wall of Fire.  One of the other good (and bad) things about her brain pets is that they all fly, so you always have line of sight to hit them with spells.  But if you guard with them, they'll lose flying, so sometimes you can hide them behind a wall. 

Anyway, don't bother giving them anything except Blocks or reverse attacks.  They don't really have the health to really take more than one or two hits maximum.

I've read that Vampirism can work with the Forcemaster (I think Shadow uses it in his Forcemaster builds) but I don't personally run it, so I don't really know.  Even with Galvitar, I'd be pretty wary of keeping the FM in melee range...every now and then it's fine but I wouldn't want to chance getting trucked by Iron Golems or Thorg most turns...

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 01:32:01 AM »
Forcemaster actually does best at melee range, as with hands + bear strength, having her within melee means death for the opponent. It's actually the most effective way I've seen her run. Playing against Shadow and his FM showed me that actually. The most threatening thing to the opponent is dying, and she does that well w/galvitar.

On a side note, vampirism is the best passive heal in the game ATM.
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reddawn

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 03:53:45 AM »
Yeah, I read about that FM build, but there was a player who explained about how to counter it with Big One or Big Two creature strategies, which is already how I and my group plays (those strategies certainly seem like the best standard ones).  I feel like if someone tried it out, it wouldn't work all that well for one reason or another.  It seems more like a build that is designed to take advantage of players who haven't figured out powerful creature openings yet rather than a serious competitive build.

Besides, the new boots that are coming out with the Priest and JBM pretty much shut that idea down pretty hard.
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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 12:28:46 PM »
I played Padawan with the full build and I wanted to test a few things from CoK so it was about 110 points of non CoK. Padawan quickly learned you need to keep the FM at range 2+. When my first hit did 20% in one attack it became a chess game. If you do not leave my zone during quick cast I can Battle Furry and kill most of the time from just average damage rolls.


It was a good match the his earth wiz finally took with careful use of tele trap and teleports.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 12:33:23 PM by Shad0w »
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Shad0w

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 12:31:10 PM »
Yeah, I read about that FM build, but there was a player who explained about how to counter it with Big One or Big Two creature strategies, which is already how I and my group plays (those strategies certainly seem like the best standard ones).  I feel like if someone tried it out, it wouldn't work all that well for one reason or another.  It seems more like a build that is designed to take advantage of players who haven't figured out powerful creature openings yet rather than a serious competitive build.

Besides, the new boots that are coming out with the Priest and JBM pretty much shut that idea down pretty hard.

A solo FM temple build made the top 4 at Origins and it was in 2nd till the last round. 

Another way to use the boots is to move the guards out of the way and keep the mage in place. In all honesty the boots are not worth playing as meta unless you have a over average number of FM players.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 12:37:07 PM by Shad0w »
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cbalian

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 02:49:53 PM »
The reason I mentioned vamparism (one of my fav cards) is it is nice to do melee damage sometimes to conserve mana when needed.  I also thought of all the mages she would be good in melee range with double strike galvitar and I was going to put the double attack ability on thought spore + beef her with +1 melees etc etc.  With forcefields, 4 defenses, defense ring to lower die roll etc she shouldn't get hit much, and if she does that is where the vamp comes in to heal her.  Swinging with like 12 dice of damage per round she should get some healing power out of it.

For the "big creature" issue if the mage hides with guards I tossed in elusive so I could skip guards.  And I don't pull vamp, elusive or other things like that until late after they've exhausted their removal cards.

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 04:37:58 PM »
Yeah, I read about that FM build, but there was a player who explained about how to counter it with Big One or Big Two creature strategies, which is already how I and my group plays (those strategies certainly seem like the best standard ones).  I feel like if someone tried it out, it wouldn't work all that well for one reason or another.  It seems more like a build that is designed to take advantage of players who haven't figured out powerful creature openings yet rather than a serious competitive build.

Besides, the new boots that are coming out with the Priest and JBM pretty much shut that idea down pretty hard.

A solo FM temple build made the top 4 at Origins and it was in 2nd till the last round. 

Another way to use the boots is to move the guards out of the way and keep the mage in place. In all honesty the boots are not worth playing as meta unless you have a over average number of FM players.

Ok, but I read that there were only 14 players at Origins, most of whom were playing with lots of conjurations (at least that's the impression I got from the thread in Gen discussion), so saying "Top 4" isn't terribly impressive in that context. 

Then again, I also read that there were a lot of aggro players there.  :-\

Basically, from my position, it's hard to know what to think because I don't know the decklists or how people played.  Top 4-ing a 14 player tourney is fine, but I'm more used to thinking about Grand Prixs and Pro Tour Qualifiers in MTG, where top 4-ing is a real feat of skill (with some luck for good measure), since you're dealing with 100+ people, with a good portion of those people net-decking professional decks.

Not trying to doubt you Shadow, I'm just saying that at this stage in MW's competitive scene, I'm trying more to get the basics down than think about a book build that could or could not be representative of the skill of the majority of MW players.
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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 06:07:02 PM »
Yeah, there where a lot of newer players playing as well, and the aggro wasn't true aggro, more of a big creature/temple strategy. As far as skill goes, I did see a fair bit of misplays, as well as a few players playing Warlord. It was interesting, but by no means was it an indicator of the meta as of today. I think Gen con will bring more players, and give more players time to flesh out a strategy as well as play test more.

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cbalian

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2013, 08:00:10 PM »
Just wanted to thank everyone again for the advice!  I finally played my 1st game with the Forcemaster and it was a resounding victory.  With all her control with sleep/charms/mind control + all her defenses and shields I won the game without even taking one SINGLE point of damage!  Nothing got through that stuff.

And with her double strike weapon and being able to attack twice per round doing 10+ dice of damage to the enemy mage per turn for zero mana cost made for quite the stomping of the enemy!

Thoughtspore A) (with Sleep) just put everything to sleep as soon as it was summoned so that took care of every creature so I never had to worry about enemy creatures

Thoughtspore B) (with Forcehammer) was rolling EIGHT dice per round for any conjurations that came out, so squashed Beasties Lair + any mana sources in one hit so didn't have to worry about enemy conjurations

Then giving her unavoidable attacks so she could ignore enemy mage defenses definitely sealed their fate.

I still think overall the Priest is still my favorite mage but Forcemaster seems pretty cool. 

Anyways thanks again for the advice folks!  You all rock.  :)

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Re: Deflect vs Armor & Forcefield vs Circle of Lightning
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2013, 11:58:55 PM »
I see your friend learned not to use conjurations against the FM the hard way lol.
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