November 22, 2024, 08:20:12 AM

Author Topic: Go: A Tandum Study  (Read 15232 times)

The Dude

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 08:03:53 PM »
Yeah, a big part of Go is the FtF interaction between opponents. You kind of lose that online, which is another big plus for Mage Wars for me, because you have that intimidation aspect in both games.
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Nous

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2013, 08:19:32 AM »
Great post! I played the Forcemaster (me) vs. Warlord (friend) for the first time last night, and was taken down due to a swarm. After reading this post I realize it was because I made an early mistake that left me reacting to all of my opponent's moves, when the FM really needs to set the tempo so that she has time to reposition and attack. I'll be re-working my strategy with these concepts in mind.

Fentum

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 04:15:36 PM »
Yeah, a big part of Go is the FtF interaction between opponents. You kind of lose that online, which is another big plus for Mage Wars for me, because you have that intimidation aspect in both games.

I can still intimidate on line...

MWAH HAH HAH HARRRRRRR!!!

 :o



Charmyna

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2013, 01:02:58 PM »
I read this post yesterday and today i kept thinking about gote and sente. Really nice way of thinking - thx for sharing it with us!

DaFurryFury

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2014, 01:51:06 PM »
These are some really neat comparisons. I'm relatively new to mage wars but have been playing Go for several years with my bro. Go has always been one of the greatest examples of game theory as far as give and take is concerned, but translating that same idea to sente and gote is kind-of genius! Even though the two ideas are loosely the same, they serve two greatly different models of thinking.

Anyway this has inspired new strategies and ideas for me. I've always known that several games can be alike at the core, but I have always thought of Mage Wars as more like chess. Though your thoughts make me think that Go is more applicable since it's such a game of pace and less about tactical positioning. (Not to say that positioning has no presence)

Thanks for your thoughts!
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Kedgen

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2015, 02:32:01 AM »
This is awesome! I am an avid Go player myself and think that the strategies apply to so many other things in life! PS my username on KGS is Nealo

:)

The Dude

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2015, 04:58:18 PM »
Thank you all so much for the kind words and gratitude shown in regards to this article. Feel free to message me any time with thoughts on how we can improve this method of thinking, and I would be more than happy to go into further detail on these thoughts, if any would be interested.


Thank you!
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Halewijn

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2015, 10:24:37 AM »
My friend, you have just hit a point I ave been thinking about for a long time- MW is a Euro Game in disguise. But, before I go into that, I must first say that your observation of Go is not wrong, rather it's short sighted. Especially on games played on a 9x9 (blasphemy!), control of areas on a Go board constantly switches with opponents of equal skill.

But, why do I say it's a euro game? Because, you have all the classic "hits" of a Euro/abstract. Let's look at what BGG says about Euros http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Eurogame:

Most Eurogames share the following elements:

Player conflict is indirect and usually involves competition over resources or points. Combat is extremely rare.

Players are never eliminated from the game (All players are still playing when the game ends.)

There is very little randomness or luck. Randomness that is there is mitigated by having the player decide what to do after a random event happens rather than before. Dice are rare, but not unheard of, in a Euro.

The Designer of the game is listed on the game's box cover. Though this is not particular to Euros, the Eurogame movement seems to have started this trend. This is why some gamers and designers call this genre of games Designer Games.

Much attention is paid to the artwork and components. Plastic and metal are rare, more often pieces are made of wood.
Eurogames have a definite theme, however, the theme most often has very little to do with the gameplay. The focus instead is on the mechanics; for example, a game about space may be the same as a game about ancient Rome.

MW has almost all of these qualities, including resource management! Yes, there is direct conflict, but it is a means to an end. I often think of an opponent's life total as a point scoring mechanism. You don't score any points for killing creatures, only for killing the mage. There is VERY little luck in MW. OH BUT THE DICE, SIR! This is where statistics come. The law of averages state that the more times you test something, the closer of an average result you will get. This is never perfect, per say, but theoretically it can be. If you roll one damage die once, chances are 1 in 6 that you will roll a 2 critical. If you roll 2 dice, those stats have increased to 1 in 6 for both dice. But, as Mage Wars players, we strive to break the components (ie roll more than the number of dice that come with the game). Side note: at least I do, the feeling of rolling more dice than you are allowed to has a certain... rebellious feeling. but the point is, luck is still a factor, but it is greatly mitigated both mechanically and dynamically.

The other factor that makes it not so much a Euro is the fact that this game drips with theme. But, to talk about your specific post, which is Area control. What makes this a different sort of area control game than Go is that the areas are not apparent, at least at first glance, whereas in Go, you can normally get a good view of what areas will be fought over by midgame. different mages want different approaches. I know for the Wizard, I want to control the two middle squares, as I can cast all of my attack spells from that point. For the priestess, she wants to control about a third of the board (the first 4 zones lengthways). This is not static, rather it's to point out that Area control does have an interesting dynamic in game play.

the last sentence is very interesting, as it talks about baiting, which I have also talked about. It seems to not be favored, but it has worked for me!

Mage wars is really not a euro game at all.

Although it is a very strategic game, not based on luck. Luck can be VERY important. I have played games were I rolled the worst hits and no matter what you do, after a few horrible rolls its just game over. Ive had games that my dice were crazy hard and I even felt sorry for my opponent. Sometimed good or bad roll can make a game changing difference.

Examples I had:
- my perfectly healthy blood demon killed with 1 hurl boulder. 1 health would be enough to at least use his vampiric or react.

- in a game were I was dominating in every way the opponent trew 2 boulders, did 23 damage and killed me. Granted I did not have armor but at that point I really didnt need it yet since I was winning so hard.

- after my opponent trew a ton of fireballs at my tree, it had 1 life left and only 1 burn. It did  zero damage. After that it healed 4 life during upkeep and I could react. The tree did not die.

Again, mage wars is not a game based on luck. But saying it is not important is simply wrong.

In most eurogames, the players are not completely different. Maybe some small starting stat differences... A fm and a warlord completely different.

No plastic pieces, but also no wooden pieces. Some small tokens and a board...

Direct combat rare? Yes, there is a ton next to the combat. But unless 1 is turtling and the other one is using dot, I see direct combat almost every round.

Saying the damage is somewhat like scoring points, I can see what you mean and its not completely wrong but you can heal easy. (Lowering the points of the opponent) you need a different amount of points. You can change the amount the opponent needs. Most eurogames count the number of points after x rounds. The 1 with the most wins. Not saying these things never happen in eurogames, but the combination of them all makes it kinda a weak analogy.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:36:14 AM by Halewijn »
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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2015, 02:07:02 PM »
I'm not sure where you drew that I said MW has no direct conflict. My exact quote was "Yes, there is Direct conflict, but it is a means to an ends". I think what you were drawing off of was the definition of euro games that i paraphrased in two three lines at the beginning of the post.

As well, you mention luck being an important factor. And indeed, it is. It is the unknown variable in a game based around knowing your opponent. It's the fog of war. Luck is important, but far more important is how you deal with that luck. What's the phrase? "Prepare for the worst, expect the best"? This applies to MW especially because things can go drastically wrong. For example, I had a game yesterday in which my Lair got Conquered. If that doesn't strike you out of left field, what does? Knowing how to handle that situation is far more important than the luck itself. The dice will even out. Bad play, and bad building, won't. Sure, you can argue that it is statistically probable for the dice not to be in your favor. But arguing with plastic cubes won't really get you anywhere... :P

As well, I don't mean to be pedantic, but the action markers and quickcast markers are both wooden components, as well as the channeling, mana, and life/damage cubes.

All that being said, I can definitely see where people think that MW is an ameritrash game. It's got dice, magic, team building, and complicated, corner rules that only apply sometimes every 20 years when the blue moon strikes the lake water at just right angle. And it is. But the thinking behind MW goes much deeper than move here, roll this, play this. And that's what I was trying to get at with the quoted post.
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Halewijn

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2015, 02:30:07 PM »
Yeah, maybe I understood some things wrong.    ::) But you do seem to under-value luck in mage wars? 1 extremely good/bad roll can change a game a lot. Handling a situation is extremely important to get back on your feet, I couldnt agree more, but it doesnt always work. Sometimes, the dice can hate you and there is nothing you can do about it. Luck is a thing you have in reality as wel, so I still love the fact that things dont always go as planned. And strat./tactics are far more important than luck. But luck is not a "small factor"

Btw: conquer is completely unrelated to luck. That was just an epic move from your opponent.  :P

Ps: still dont think mw is even slightly a eurogame. Even the condition markers arent those typicall euro-kind pieces.
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The Dude

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2015, 09:03:56 PM »
I'm still struggling to see where I say luck is a small factor. I'm not undervaluing it, I just think that valuing luck in a game can only lead to bad decision making. The dice are an effect of the actions that you take. This means that if you never took any actions, you would never be able to roll any dice, right? Yes, you can roll 4 dice and wiff or crit on all of them. But the more dice that you roll, the more chance (luck) that you have to roll enough damage to achieve your goal. You can control the number of dice you roll, so you can control your luck much more than you could in most ameritrash games, such as Descent or Myth, just to name a few of the ones I really enjoy. As well, there are other ways to mitigate luck in the form of status effects. These are less controllable, but you can still altar the number of times you roll that status die.

I'm not under-valuing luck, I'm accepting it for what it is in order to control it as much as possible.
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Halewijn

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Re: Go: A Tandum Study
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2015, 01:26:16 AM »
We both agree then :P

I guess I totally misunderstood your previous post then.  :o
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