Force Hold vs Force Crush

[MrSaucy]

Force Hold and Force Crush are pretty similar spells. Is one strictly better than the other? If not, when is one better than the other? Does it make sense to run both spells in the same spellbook?

>>>Force Crush:

7 mana, quick action, 0-2 creature, costs 3 spell points (mind)

Upkeep +4, Magebind +2

Creature is Restrained and Unmovable. Each Upkeep Phase, if Force Crush's upkeep cost is paid, this creature recieves 2 direct damage. Does not affect creatures with the Uncontainable trait.

>>>Force Hold:

4 mana, quick action, 0-2 creature, costs 2 spell points (mind)

Upkeep +3

Creature is Restrained and Unmovable trait. Does not affect creatures with the Uncontainable trait.

>>Why Force Crush might be strictly better

The appeal of playing Force Crush over Force Hold seems to be... well... the added "crushing" bonus. You are essentially paying just 1 more mana during your upkeep do deal 2 damage to the creature. Not to mention, Force Crush only costs 3 more mana and does everything Force Hold does PLUS more. You could even say Force Crush is like Force Hold + Ghoul Rot in a sense.

>>>Why Force Hold might be strictly better

Even though the mana difference between Force Hold and Force Crush is only 3 mana, Force Hold is still cheaper. Also, Force Hold costs 1 less upkeep and costs 2 spellpoints instead of 3. This might not be a huge difference to a Forcemaster, but to any other mage the difference between 1 Force Hold and 1 Force Crush is 2 spellpoints. Finally, Force Hold could be considered better than Force Crush because you can still target a mage without having to pay the extra +2 mana for Magebind.

>>>Do you really need to carry both?

I can't imagine a scenario where you would need to run Force Hold AND Force Crush together. So I think the answer is no. What does the forum think?

[sIKE]

I could see having both in a spell book, but running both at the same time is ridiculously expensive mana wise.  I have used both in the game, I really enjoy Force Hold though....

[MrSaucy]

I feel like I am learning towards Force Hold being better. You play Force Hold / Force Crush for the main purpose of restraining the target creature, not crushing them to death.

What about a FM running 2 Force Hold and 2 Force Crush? Maybe the Force Hold could be reserved for creatures while the Force Crush could be reserved for the opponent mage? I haven't tested it out yet, but I like the idea of waiting until the enemy is out of dispels and then enchanting them with Force Crush.

[Snotwalker]

I feel like I am learning towards Force Hold being better. You play Force Hold / Force Crush for the main purpose of restraining the target creature, not crushing them to death.

What about a FM running 2 Force Hold and 2 Force Crush? Maybe the Force Hold could be reserved for creatures while the Force Crush could be reserved for the opponent mage? I haven't tested it out yet, but I like the idea of waiting until the enemy is out of dispels and then enchanting them with Force Crush.

This has been a game winner in several match-ups I've played.  If the FM's opponent can't dispel the Force Crush, and is out of healing options.... well.... game over in most situations.  The FM can go defensive, do the happy dance on the other side of the arena, and watch her opponent slowly crushed into goo. 

[MrSaucy]

I feel like I am learning towards Force Hold being better. You play Force Hold / Force Crush for the main purpose of restraining the target creature, not crushing them to death.

What about a FM running 2 Force Hold and 2 Force Crush? Maybe the Force Hold could be reserved for creatures while the Force Crush could be reserved for the opponent mage? I haven't tested it out yet, but I like the idea of waiting until the enemy is out of dispels and then enchanting them with Force Crush.

This has been a game winner in several match-ups I've played.  If the FM's opponent can't dispel the Force Crush, and is out of healing options.... well.... game over in most situations.  The FM can go defensive, do the happy dance on the other side of the arena, and watch her opponent slowly crushed into goo.

So you would consider running both Force Hold and Force Crush viable in the case of the FM? I think for any other mage Force Crush is too steep to include whereas Force Hold can be a little easier to slip in.

[nitrodavid]

2 direct damage for 4 mana is very inefficient. so you might say since it cost 1 mana more it is 2 damage for 1 mana but keep in mind that upkeep is 30-40% of your mana channel. I have never seen the force master run away from a fight even while restraining a creature/mage. the best use of force hold I see is to get restrained on larger creatures so you can ignore there guards.

I would always rather run 2 force holds over 1 force crush for that reason, with psi orb you can have 2 holds for 4 upkeep or 1 crush for 3 upkeep

[MrSaucy]

2 direct damage for 4 mana is very inefficient. so you might say since it cost 1 mana more it is 2 damage for 1 mana but keep in mind that upkeep is 30-40% of your mana channel. I have never seen the force master run away from a fight even while restraining a creature/mage. the best use of force hold I see is to get restrained on larger creatures so you can ignore there guards.

I would always rather run 2 force holds over 1 force crush for that reason, with psi orb you can have 2 holds for 4 upkeep or 1 crush for 3 upkeep

Also, restrained creatures lose flying, so you could always use it as a last ditch effort to ground a flyer. The one problem with restraining a creature is that they automatically gain counterstrike, so Force Hold/Force Crush works best on creatures you don't plan on really attacking.

[ringkichard]

The one problem with restraining a creature is that they automatically gain counterstrike, so Force Hold/Force Crush works best on creatures you don't plan on really attacking.

Wait, what?

[sdougla2]

The one problem with restraining a creature is that they automatically gain counterstrike, so Force Hold/Force Crush works best on creatures you don't plan on really attacking.

Wait, what?

That was my response. I'm pretty sure you misread the rules for Restrained. Restrained makes it so that the only benefit of guarding is gaining the counterstrike trait on your fast attacks, but it does not automatically grant counterstrike on it's own.

[MrSaucy]

"The only advantage a Restrained guard receives is the Counterstrike trait."

When I read that in the rulebook, I thought that meant the restrained creature gained the counterstrike trait by default. My bad. I think they could have worded that a little better. When they said "advantage" that threw me off.

[nitrodavid]

funny enough every time I have seen a creature restrained it has been on guard. so practically it dies have counterstrike lol.
I should also emphasize the point about restrained and flying because the force master has trouble against flying so more force holds become more valuable then force crush. 

[MrSaucy]

funny enough every time I have seen a creature restrained it has been on guard. so practically it dies have counterstrike lol.
I should also emphasize the point about restrained and flying because the force master has trouble against flying so more force holds become more valuable then force crush.

There are a few ways the FM can deal with flyers. Force Hammer, Charm/Mind Control, Sleep, Force Hold, and especially Knockdown, which could be bound to a thoughtspore. The FM has the biggest problem against immovable creatures with psychic immunity. I can't think of anything to do with these creatures but curse them with something nasty, teleport them away, or hope to whack them with Galvitar until they are dead.

[jacksmack]

funny enough every time I have seen a creature restrained it has been on guard. so practically it dies have counterstrike lol.
I should also emphasize the point about restrained and flying because the force master has trouble against flying so more force holds become more valuable then force crush.

There are a few ways the FM can deal with flyers. Force Hammer, Charm/Mind Control, Sleep, Force Hold, and especially Knockdown, which could be bound to a thoughtspore. The FM has the biggest problem against immovable creatures with psychic immunity. I can't think of anything to do with these creatures but curse them with something nasty, teleport them away, or hope to whack them with Galvitar until they are dead.

use defenses and forcefield?

or double strike it with piercing strikes.  Bam one shot.

[nitrodavid]

The FM has the biggest problem against immovable creatures with psychic immunity. I can't think of anything to do with these creatures but curse them with something nasty, teleport them away, or hope to whack them with Galvitar until they are dead.

since the only Psychic immunity and Unmovable creature is Iron golem i would recommend you pack a single lightning spell. from the builds i see most FM have room for some out of school items in there build