Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: Borg on February 15, 2017, 06:44:02 AM
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UPDATED 19 march 2017
[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]Eye in the Sky[/spellbookname]
[mage]Forcemaster[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWQ04]1 x Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ01]1 x Dancing Scimitar[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q07]1 x Elemental Cloak[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjuration[/spellclass]
[mwcard=LG01J04]4 x Mind's Eye[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1j12]1 x Mana Crystal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=PSJ06]1 x Pillar of Righteous Flame[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J22]1 x Tanglevine[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1W01]2 x Wall of Force[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Creature[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWAPRC07]1 x Meditating Monk[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1C26]1 x Necropian Vampiress[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC16]4 x Thoughtspore[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1E01]2 x Bear Strength[/mwcard]
[mwcard=LG01E03]2 x Critical Strike[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE03]2 x Falcon Precision[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E33]1 x Retaliate[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1e32]1 x Regrowth[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1e36]1 x Rhino Hide[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE08]1 x Mind Shield[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01E02]1 x Arcane Ward[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE04]2 x Brace Yourself[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWAPRE05]2 x Glancing Blow[/mwcard]
[mwcard=PSE03]2 x Chant of Rage[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE05]1 x Forcefield[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Incantation[/spellclass]
[mwcard=mw1i06]3 x Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i07]3 x Dissolve[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i24]1 x Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=LG01I01]2 x Clear Mind[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI06]1 x Defend[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i28]2 x Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i12]2 x Force Push[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI04]1 x Force Wave[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI03]1 x Disarm[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI09]1 x Steal Equipment[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I26]1 x Sleep[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Attack[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFA02]1 x Hurl Rock[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1A06]1 x Flameblast[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1A09]1 x Jet Stream[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKA01]1 x Surging Wave[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWA02]1 x Force Hammer[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: 120 pts[/cost]
[/spellbook]
More info about the changes can be found in replies #15 & #62
END EDIT
***********************************************
The book started out originally like here
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17747.0
but has since been much improved upon imo.
It started out with Alandell but he's been removed since for a variety of reasons
1- very high sbp cost
2- boosting his attacks can at times just be too taxing on your mana resources
3- the mana you save really opens up the Thoughtspore game
4- he's an all-out offensive powerhouse but is not as good defensively and for this book and its strategy I prefer to have a creature that can excel at both
5- I prefer a creature with more staying power and who requires less maintenance
6- being Legendary, there's always the risk your opponent might play him before you thereby crippling you
Thus, Alandell has since been replaced with a Necropian Vampiress who fits the job description far better and who requires a lot less mana and attention overall to be effective in this strategy.
Vampiress with a Bear Strength is a serious offensive threat but at the same time is a tough defensive nut to crack as well.
Put the Vampiress on Guard and she can take a hit, swing back hard and heal herself in the process.
A guarding Vampiress also has much better synergy with Chant of Rage than a Guarding Alandell.
Her ability to gain Flight means she can take care of enemy Fliers, hop over walls, attack opposing Mind's Eyes etc.
Another addition I'm very happy with is Meditating Monk.
He's 1 sbp and 1 mana cheaper than a Crystal and since the FM (normally) prefers to stay in her zone during the early rounds, the full cast is not a handicap.
Opening with Monk-Crystal allows you to up your mana income to 12 per round for just a 9 mana investment and 3 sbp's.
The other bonus the Monk brings is that he gives you an extra action.
When you have a couple of Thoughtspores out you effectively generate 14 mana per round, which is usually more than enough to support the two spores every round if needed.
In the meantime, the number of Spores and Eyes has gone up to 4 copies of each.
Yes, you'll need them, want them and may one day play all four of one or the other, they are that good and I'm sure they are going to get more attention as they become more prominent.
The standard opening which I like very much goes like
R1 20 : Meditating Monk - Mana Crystal
R2 22(+1) : Necropian Vampiress - FD Bear Strength
R3 16(+1) : Thoughtspore - FD Glancing Blow or Mind's Eye
R4 18/14(+1) : plenty of mana to work with.
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No Acid Ball? - One of my favourite spells to put on a thoughtspore.
What spells do you in general prefer to put on the spores?
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With only the vampiress and the forcemaster to attack, critical strike is way better than Acid ball. I would consider a third copy though.
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With only the vampiress and the forcemaster to attack, critical strike is way better than Acid ball. I would consider a third copy though.
You cannot put that on a spore.
Critial strikes are certianly better in several ways, but it also has its downsides compared to acid ball.
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Additionally, you have dissolve/dispel spores if needed that can take out anything with mind's eye and are protected with glancing blow. :P I really don't think he needs acid ball.
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Hi Jack, Halewijn,
The first thing this book is looking for is to take away the opponent's equipment.
Armors, weapons, wands all just have to go.
But not only those. Gloves, Rings etc will eventually be taken out as well as it can be done so cheap and without Mage actions.
Therefore the first spore will likely be a Dissolve Spore, certainly if the opponent gives me the best clue of all in that regard : Battle Forge.
Contrary to a lot of other books who will be looking to take out a Battle Forge quickly, this book doesn't mind.
Other early clues you may get are Enchanter's Ring ( Dispel Spore likely coming up ) or Ring of Beasts ( Hurl Rock Spore )
The Critical Strikes are mainly meant to take on creatures with 2+ armor.
I prefer to spend just 5 mana and 1 action on Critical Strike which I can possibly reuse multiple times and protect with an Arcane Ward if necessary instead of casting multiple Acid Balls and spending a lot of mana on them.
If the opponent doesn't focus on equipment, you can still go with Rust & Critical strike to counter up to 5 armor.
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Nice to see you coming back to the vampiress. As I said I think she is working very well as FM buddy for all reasons you described.
I always had the feeling in many cases you don't need mind eye. Some spore or target is in reach all the time. But I guess that heavily depends on the enemy mage.
I really like the meditating monk in your book! Much more versatile than a second crystal. I use a wispwillow amulett for its cheaper mana cost, but for a longer game you're losing advantage with it.
I haven't tried critical strike with that setup yet, but like it. I was with the acidball fraction here :)
I miss some healing.
I personally prefer vampirism as you wanna punch anyway and that heals you the same time without further action.
But a mend or minor heal spore is also definitely a solid option.
I am not to wand of healing. Only few dice, gets dissolved quickly and you might need your action for some other things.
And I see you don't run steal equipment. I like that to get a chitin or hauberk armor and dissolve ot the same time. It is expensive but so much fun to play :D
With only 1 scimitar that would not stay long in our local meta.
All in all these are all minor thoughts. In general the book looks solid and great!
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Regarding the Acid Ball discussion, AB is good against Zombies, while Critical Strike is useless (aside from when attacking the opposing Mage).
Do you have a particular strategy against Zombie Necromancers? When the Vampiress was my Forcemaster buddy, I found she really struggled against the undead. I suppose you can push/pull Zombies into a Pillar of Righteous Flame...
I guess the argument goes either way: Necromancer will struggle with the Mind's Eyes (probably needs a Mage Wand or some Ethereal attack spells to deal with them); and the Forcemaster/Vampiress have trouble with the hordes of zombies. Maybe the idea is to avoid the Zombies themselves (some are Pests, and the Vampiress can always take flight to avoid being hindered), so maybe a Teleport Spore could work to keep separating the Necromancer from his minions.
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Do you have a particular strategy against Zombie Necromancers? When the Vampiress was my Forcemaster buddy, I found she really struggled against the undead. I suppose you can push/pull Zombies into a Pillar of Righteous Flame...
I guess the argument goes either way: Necromancer will struggle with the Mind's Eyes (probably needs a Mage Wand or some Ethereal attack spells to deal with them); and the Forcemaster/Vampiress have trouble with the hordes of zombies. Maybe the idea is to avoid the Zombies themselves (some are Pests, and the Vampiress can always take flight to avoid being hindered), so maybe a Teleport Spore could work to keep separating the Necromancer from his minions.
I haven't played vs Necromancer yet with this book but the idea is to Hurl Rock & Flameblast him from across the arena.
The Necromancer is likely going to have trouble with the Flying Eyes and Thoughtspores.
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@chef
Regarding Healing : I have a Regrowth available ;) and a Raincloud to protect my starting zone and Spores against things like Idol of Pestilence.
A Minor Heal on a spore sounds great but in practice I usually have a more important spell to put on the Spore.
I do not exclude however that I might still move into that direction at one point.
In general though, I prefer passive healing.
As such, the Wand of Healing is there mostly to counter devastating conditions like Stun, Cripple, Tainted etc
The built-in Vampirism and Flying is one of the great advantages of the Vampiress and allows me to save 8 sbp's ( Vampirism and Eagle Wings for Alandell)
Steal Equipment : what do I cut for it ? :)
It's a situational card and therefore less "necessary" to have available imo and it's cheaper sbp wise to have a piece of armor in the book instead of Steal Equipment.
Scimitar is not meant to be an early card and has yet to come out with this book.
FM plays a "manager" game early on, bringing the right counters/tools into play.
Galvitar-Scimitar-Forcefield are more meant as middle to late game options and may not be needed at all if things work out OK. They are however too good to leave out and may come in handy at any point in the game.
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Just want to say this looks like a really cool book. Props for the design. I look forward to trying it out and/or making my own version. Minds eyes and thoughtspores are a perfect combo. Can't wait to see how force master changes as these newer cards are explored.
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@chef
Regarding Healing : I have a Regrowth available ;) and a Raincloud to protect my starting zone and Spores against things like Idol of Pestilence.
A Minor Heal on a spore sounds great but in practice I usually have a more important spell to put on the Spore.
I do not exclude however that I might still move into that direction at one point.
In general though, I prefer passive healing.
As such, the Wand of Healing is there mostly to counter devastating conditions like Stun, Cripple, Tainted etc
The built-in Vampirism and Flying is one of the great advantages of the Vampiress and allows me to save 8 sbp's ( Vampirism and Eagle Wings for Alandell)
Steal Equipment : what do I cut for it ? :)
It's a situational card and therefore less "necessary" to have available imo and it's cheaper sbp wise to have a piece of armor in the book instead of Steal Equipment.
Scimitar is not meant to be an early card and has yet to come out with this book.
FM plays a "manager" game early on, bringing the right counters/tools into play.
Galvitar-Scimitar-Forcefield are more meant as middle to late game options and may not be needed at all if things work out OK. They are however too good to leave out and may come in handy at any point in the game.
So the book is meant to be more manager-style than I thought. Vampirism on yourself with galvitar for sure only makes sense if you want to go melee. But you actually don't want to do that.
And yes, steal equipment is not a card you need. Just a fun surprise. But again this only works when you are at your enemy.
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So the book is meant to be more manager-style than I thought. Vampirism on yourself with galvitar for sure only makes sense if you want to go melee. But you actually don't want to do that.
Well, you need to set up first of course and that will take about 3 or 4 full casts. Monk (mana), Vampiress ( defense) and 1 or two Spores.
I'm cautious as not to cast the first spore too soon, not before I get a clear/better idea of what my first spore should "do", so I don't make a crucial mistake.
Sometimes it's clear right away what you want, sometimes not. By R3 at the latest you should know how to proceed.
Against a Necromancer for example you might want to start with 2 spores ( Hurl Rock and Flameblast ) and two eyes to put on the pressure immediately.
Once you're set up you'll likely want to spend the FM's next actions casting spells ( like Chant of Rage, Critical Strike ) or force pulling or whatever to improve your current board situation. If that situation dictates you to pull out Galvitar and the Scimitar you can do that too of course but usually ( if things go as planned ;) ) that will not happen early game.
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Why the vampress and not guardian angel?
What happens once I kill the raincloud and all your spores?
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Why Vampiress ?
From a pure defensive standpoint Guardian Angel is even stronger but offensively she can't tip the Vampiress and I need my main creature to be strong in both areas.
Angel can heal herself, but only if she takes a Guard action, not while attacking. The heal is also fixed at two. Intercept is generally nice but it doesn't help the Spores at all unless they go on Guard as well, which is not the plan.
Vampiress can potentially heal herself when Guarding but also when attacking. Her Healing is also higher at average 4 ( with a Bear Strength on, that is )
Also, Vampiric Healing is not limited to once per round. She can potentially heal multiple times in 1 round.
Then there's the damage output.
I'm looking for 7 dice as a sweet spot.
7 dice with a critical Strike can take out a Forge in 1 attack ( on average )
7 dice with Divine Might can take out an enemy Mind's Eye with 1 attack
7 dice allows you to take out all those 12/13/14 life creatures in two attacks on average.
The Vampiress can do that with a Bear Strength.
Angel with a Bear Strength rolls just 5 dice.
That means she needs 2 rounds to take something out that the Vampiress does in 1 round and she needs 3 rounds where the Vampiress needs 2. This means you fall further back every round compared to the Vampiress.
Bridge Troll has 5 basic dice as well, but Flame +2 and no armor hurt big. The biggest miss however is no Flying ability. He can't protect the Spores vs enemy Flyers.
With regard to the changes that have been made since the opening post.
Force Wave has been added to potentially max out Pillar of Righteous Flame.
A Defend and a Retaliate have been added to allow the Vampiress to go on offense when she spots a nice opportunity and not be a sitting duck after the attack.
The nice thing about Retaliate is that it can really take an opponent by surprise and it's a non-mandatory reveal, so you can keep it around to lash out at the target you want.
Biggest change was probably made to the attack spells.
I took out Force Hammer and slimmed down to three attack spells.
Why 3 ?
That's the most I'll ever put into play on a spore. One Spore will always have a Dissolve, Dispel, Teleport, seeking Dispel or Sleep on.
I don't want to cast Attack spells and throw away sbp's with my FM. I think I can get more dice in by working Galvitar instead then.
So which 3 attack spells and why ?
Hurl Rock is simply the best bang for the buck. 5 dice for 4 mana with a Daze chance on top. Plain damage though and not unavoidable.
For the two others I wanted some extra's built in in the form of extra elemental damage.
Fireblast is obviously excellent vs anything that has a reason to fear Fire and it's unavoidable and can add Burns. Pretty obvious choice.
But then, what in place of the Hammer ?
I took him out because he's too mana intensive to be put on a Spore. This book generates 14 mana per round ( with two spores out ) and wants to be able to Force Pull, use the FM defense if necessary and Fly the Vampiress if necessary, that leaves 11 mana to work with to fuel two spores every round.
Spending 9 mana on a hammer that rolls only 6 dice vs everything that is not a corporeal conjuration is not a big deal.
So I went looking for a cheaper alternative and found it in the form of a Piercing Thunderstrike.
Piercing Thunderstrike is much cheaper at just 6 mana and does a lot of the things that the hammer does, just a little different.
Both are Ethereal, so I've got that covered again.
Hammer rolls 6 dice but Strike rolls 4 + Pierce 2 which comes down to pretty much the same result vs Objects who have 2+ armor. ( except corporeal conjurations )
The difference here is that I get a 7+ Stagger Chance instead of an 8+ Slam chance and it's Lightning damage, which ups my attack dice vs certain Lightning sensitive folks.
I'll add the updated book in the first post of this thread.
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Just wanted to say I agree with almost everything Borg said for his choice of spells (incl Vampiress)... except the contradiction highlighted in red below...
But then, what in place of the Hammer.
I took him out because he's too mana intensive to be put on a Spore. This book generates 14 mana per round ( with two spores out ) and want to be able to Force Pull, use the FM defense if necessary and Fly the Vampiress if necessary, that leaves 11 mana to work with to fuel two spores every round.
Spending 9 mana on a hammer that rolls only 6 dice vs everything that is not a corporeal conjuration is not a big deal.
So I went looking for a cheaper alternative and found it in the Form of a Piercing Thunderstike.
Piercing Thunderstrike is much cheaper at just 6 mana and does a lot of the things that the hammer does, just a little different.
Both are Ethereal, so I've got that covered again.
Hammer rolls 6 dice but Strike rolls 4 + Pierce 2 which comes down to pretty much the same result vs Conjurations who often have 2+ armor.
The difference here is that I get a 7+ Stagger Chance instead of an 8+ Slam chnace and it's Lightning damage, which ups my attack dice vs certain Lightning sensitive folks.
Hammer rolls 8 dice against any conjuration that has 2+ Armor (which would have to be Corporeal, since Incorporeal can't have Armor). So Hammer is always better than Piercing Thunderstrike when the target is a Conjuration (whether Corporeal w/ or w/o Armor, or Incorporeal).
But I understand the desire to save a little mana, esp if you want your Thoughtspores firing on all cylinders every round. Not sure I can justify 4 sbp's for a Piercing Thunderstrike when Force Hammer is in school at 2 sbp, though. I put the Hammer in a lot of non-Mind books and would never consider Piercing Thunderstrike when they cost the same sbp... so it's really hard to turn down the Hammer when it's in school - it's probably the best 2 sbp attack spells, imho (e.g. Hurl Boulder is 4 sbp for the FM, and usually that's the easiest comparison when discussing pros and cons of Force Hammer vs. another attack spell for training where the each cost 4 sbp's).
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Just wanted to say I agree with almost everything Borg said for his choice of spells (incl Vampiress)... except the contradiction highlighted in red below...
Oops ... typed that but meant to say something else ... I'll correct the post above.
Was Trying to say that 6 dice or 4 dice + Pierce 2 is more or less the same vs objects with 2+ armor ( unless it's a corporeal conjuration of course )
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I think vs falcons, a good player will tanglevine the vampire and blast the spores.
Also, jet stream wand with hawkeye, akiro, and gale ring. Can wreck spores. Still 5 dice most likely with glancing blow.
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I think vs falcons, a good player will tanglevine the vampire and blast the spores.
Falcons may get one-shot by Hurl Rocks before getting close.
Lesser Teleports take care of Tanglevines.
Also, jet stream wand with hawkeye, akiro, and gale ring. Can wreck spores. Still 5 dice most likely with glancing blow.
I see a Wand or some other threatening equipment, Dissolve spore is up.
This book wouldn't be much of a book if it didn't have a counter to those obvious situations.
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I think vs falcons, a good player will tanglevine the vampire and blast the spores.
Falcons may get one-shot by Hurl Rocks before getting close.
Lesser Teleports take care of Tanglevines.
Also, jet stream wand with hawkeye, akiro, and gale ring. Can wreck spores. Still 5 dice most likely with glancing blow.
I see a Wand or some other threatening equipment, Dissolve spore is up.
This book wouldn't be much of a book if it didn't have a counter to those obvious situations.
You cannot lesser teleport out of tanglevine bc a conjuration is attached to you or the creature. Have to use a regular teleport
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With gauntlets, armor ward, and harshforge, that gets REALLY expensive.
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You cannot lesser teleport out of tanglevine bc a conjuration is attached to you or the creature. Have to use a regular teleport
I don't think that's correct, drmambo.
The text may be a bit misleading but is actually saying "Target creature with all cards attached to it, except attached conjurations ( because thse are often the harmful ones ) may be teleported ...
The comma after "creature" makes the difference in meaning.
If there had been no comma, then it would have meant as you described it.
With gauntlets, armor ward, and harshforge, that gets REALLY expensive.
If I spot a Warlord or Paladin across the table I practically already hold my Dissolve Spore ready.
Things will get Dissolved almost at the same speed as they come out or a round later.
It may cost me extra, sure, but going down they will. Just take the least costly path : Ward, Plate, Gauntlets.
This is a situation I've already faced. Paladin ended up pretty naked in the end. ;)
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Borg. Drmambo is correct. The text says "target creature, without attached conjurations, ..."
You cannot target a creature with tanglevine. I believe there is a tread about this already, so you can look it up.
Edit: I was that paladin and it was one of the only times I lost with that deck. Red, I'm not saying this deck can't be countered, I even had the counters you described, but he had way more actions and channeling so over the long run, I lost the game. The counters you propose aren't easy and very specific. "jet stream wand with hawkeye, akiro, and gale ring" isn't something most mages have.
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I put the Hammer in a lot of non-Mind books and would never consider Piercing Thunderstrike when they cost the same sbp... so it's really hard to turn down the Hammer when it's in school
I agree it's an unconventional move but the situations we're talking about here are different imo.
I also use FH frequently in my books but they are meant then as a one-use countermeasure to some situations that arise.
Each copy will be cast just once and then be lost.
In this case however the spell is meant to be stuck on a Spore so it can be cast every round.
I'm sure we agree that 9 mana for 6 dice ( most of the time ) every round doesn't sound very viable.
As an example : consider a ballista as target. 8 life 2 armor
Even with 8 dice the Force Hammer has less than 50% chance of taking it out in 1 shot.
You'll likely need two shots making this a very expensive deal at 18 mana.
Piercing Thunderstrike will do 4 damage on average and so will on average take it out with 12 mana.
So my point here is, Force Hammer would still be the better choice if it can eliminate it's target in 1 round on average , so anything with a combined 8 Life/armor total.
Piercing Strike's main job however is to attack creatures, many of them having 1-2 armor and that's where the damage output is the same, only the Hamer costs 3 mana more.
Against creatures with 3+ armor Force Hammer becomes better again ...
We can't have it all ... choices must be made ;)
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Borg. Drmambo is correct. The text says "target creature, without attached conjurations, ..."
You cannot target a creature with tanglevine. I believe there is a tread about this already, so you can look it up.
I just searched and found.
Darn, I could have sworn it was the other way around ... I even recognized the thread, I made the same argument ;)
This makes Lesser Teleport far less interesting.
That red comma should not be there then ... oh well ;)
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So you adapt your standered opening vs war mages or what?
One note: I just saw a really nice warlord that t1 forges and ballista's. How would you deal with that?
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So you adapt your standered opening vs war mages or what?
One note: I just saw a really nice warlord that t1 forges and ballista's. How would you deal with that?
I adapt what I put on the Spores.
A Forge R1 means a Dissolve Spore will come out very likely. (R2 or 3)
Ballista can be no further than B2 or A3-zone so can't hit me in my zone C4.
Second Spore ( Flameblast or Piercing Thunderstrike ) can handle the Ballista, maybe in combination with Vampiress.
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So you adapt your standered opening vs war mages or what?
One note: I just saw a really nice warlord that t1 forges and ballista's. How would you deal with that?
I adapt what I put on the Spores. That should not be so hard to understand.
A Forge R1 means a Dissolve Spore will come out very likely. (R2 or 3)
Ballista can be no further than B2 or A3-zone so can't hit me in my zone C4.
Second Spore ( Flameblast or Piercing Thunderstrike ) can handle the Ballista, maybe in combination with Vampiress.
Thanks! Very solid and good book!
The only thing atm I might be worried about if falcons. Tanglevine the vamp and 2-4 falcons with ragan's fury can murder the spores.
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Having played Borg's FM for a weekend (probably about 5 games in total), I can say it's super powerful! I went and changed my old thoughtspore FM to do some neat tactics that Borg had. Major props Borg I always like your write ups!
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So you adapt your standered opening vs war mages or what?
One note: I just saw a really nice warlord that t1 forges and ballista's. How would you deal with that?
I adapt what I put on the Spores. That should not be so hard to understand.
A Forge R1 means a Dissolve Spore will come out very likely. (R2 or 3)
Ballista can be no further than B2 or A3-zone so can't hit me in my zone C4.
Second Spore ( Flameblast or Piercing Thunderstrike ) can handle the Ballista, maybe in combination with Vampiress.
That specific warlord uses lots of jet streams and the like. Jet stream is really good vs spores and mind's eye.
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So you adapt your standered opening vs war mages or what?
One note: I just saw a really nice warlord that t1 forges and ballista's. How would you deal with that?
I adapt what I put on the Spores. That should not be so hard to understand.
A Forge R1 means a Dissolve Spore will come out very likely. (R2 or 3)
Ballista can be no further than B2 or A3-zone so can't hit me in my zone C4.
Second Spore ( Flameblast or Piercing Thunderstrike ) can handle the Ballista, maybe in combination with Vampiress.
That specific warlord uses lots of jet streams and the like. Jet stream is really good vs spores and mind's eye.
Any boom that uses Jet stream, especially with a wand, can good vs any incorporeal, much less a flying incorporeal
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So you adapt your standered opening vs war mages or what?
One note: I just saw a really nice warlord that t1 forges and ballista's. How would you deal with that?
I adapt what I put on the Spores. That should not be so hard to understand.
A Forge R1 means a Dissolve Spore will come out very likely. (R2 or 3)
Ballista can be no further than B2 or A3-zone so can't hit me in my zone C4.
Second Spore ( Flameblast or Piercing Thunderstrike ) can handle the Ballista, maybe in combination with Vampiress.
That specific warlord uses lots of jet streams and the like. Jet stream is really good vs spores and mind's eye.
Any boom that uses Jet stream, especially with a wand, can good vs any incorporeal, much less a flying incorporeal
Very true, but I'm talking about specifically vs this book.
Jet stream I think is a card that might become meta if people struggle to find other good mind's eye counters.
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Jet Stream is a possible counter to Mind's Eye ( still takes two casts to destroy one )
Jet Stream on a Wand isn't likely to survive for long, though.
Other options :
Mage Staff + Bear Strength on a Battle Skill Mage can take out Eyes in 1 strike.
Divine Might on a Flyer.
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Borg, I just wanted to say that I very much like your point on the 7-dice target amount. 7 Dice is the tipping point in a lot of situations and I've been mulling that over a lot recently. Thanks for the food for thought!
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Borg, I just wanted to say that I very much like your point on the 7-dice target amount. 7 Dice is the tipping point in a lot of situations and I've been mulling that over a lot recently. Thanks for the food for thought!
Bear with bear stregnth, divine might, and eagle wings would be decent vs the eyes i think.
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Would you ever consider a [mwcard=MW1E21]Hawkeye[/mwcard] on a [mwcard=FWC16]Thoughtspore[/mwcard]? Or would that be painting too big a target on it?
*edit* Or would that not work with Mind's Eye? (e.g. if Mind's Eye is the source of the attack spell, does it get Thoughtspore's "Ranged +1" trait?)
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I also think if you can kill the spores, the eyes become a lot less scary.
Ofc, that won't be easy, but there are several ways to do it.
1. Jet Stream Hawkeye: 5 dice even with glancing blow.
2: Chant of Rage: check for mind shield first.
3. Shoot them with creatures.
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2: Chant of Rage: check for mind shield first.
By "check for Mind Shield" - you mean Seeking Dispel all the face-down Enchantments on the Thoughtspore first, right? Or prepare more than one Chant of Rage... ([mwcard=FWE08]Mind Shield[/mwcard] isn't a mandatory reveal).
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There's some counterplay to Mind's Eye that I think people are overlooking--getting in close so that the Mind's Eye itself was a wasted action. Now, that means you'd have to be capable of running your book at that range. I wonder if we will see an increase in more aggressive playstyles because of Mind's Eye.
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Well, the way I like to play druid, I play her very agressively so that should work out.
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Borg, I just wanted to say that I very much like your point on the 7-dice target amount. 7 Dice is the tipping point in a lot of situations and I've been mulling that over a lot recently. Thanks for the food for thought!
My pleasure, Puddnhead.
Thanks for sharing your thought. ;)
Bear with bear stregnth, divine might, and eagle wings would be decent vs the eyes i think.
A B-52 loaded with nukes should do it too.
You're talking here about a Full Cast and three Quick Casts for a total of 33 mana and at least 9 sbps to take on a 6 mana , 2 sbp card lol.
But even then, I would like to see you take that approach though and see how it works out, just don't blame me if he's put to sleep right before he can hit anything :)
There's some counterplay to Mind's Eye that I think people are overlooking--getting in close so that the Mind's Eye itself was a wasted action. Now, that means you'd have to be capable of running your book at that range. I wonder if we will see an increase in more aggressive playstyles because of Mind's Eye.
I can only speak for myself here but I see a significant change in bookbuilding taking place at this moment.
The early years were dominated by Solo Mages, Tanks, Buddy or few buddy builds but my gut feeling tells me that was never the way the game was supposed to be played. ( by the designer ) Want proof ? Think back on how many creatures are in the core box ( more than 50% of all cards ? ) and yet so few of them saw gameplay. Swarm books in general were not successful.
We have a lot more cards at our disposal now to neutralise one or a few creatures strategies.
To be successful today, you need a small army in support imo or a way to deal damage consistently without creatures. It's still possible to go with fewer creatures but those creatures better do a lot of damage then cfr Titanodon.
It's my belief this is how the designer originally envisioned the game to be played.
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Borg, I just wanted to say that I very much like your point on the 7-dice target amount. 7 Dice is the tipping point in a lot of situations and I've been mulling that over a lot recently. Thanks for the food for thought!
My pleasure, Puddnhead.
Thanks for sharing your thought. ;)
Bear with bear stregnth, divine might, and eagle wings would be decent vs the eyes i think.
A B-52 loaded with nukes should do it too.
You're talking here about a Full Cast and three Quick Casts for a total of 33 mana and at least 9 sbps to take on a 6 mana , 2 sbp card lol.
But even then, I would like to see you take that approach though and see how it works out, just don't blame me if he's put to sleep right before he can hit anything :)
There's some counterplay to Mind's Eye that I think people are overlooking--getting in close so that the Mind's Eye itself was a wasted action. Now, that means you'd have to be capable of running your book at that range. I wonder if we will see an increase in more aggressive playstyles because of Mind's Eye.
I can only speak for myself here but I see a significant change in bookbuilding taking place at this moment.
The early years were dominated by Solo Mages, Tanks, Buddy or few buddy builds but my gut feeling tells me that was never the way the game was supposed to be played. ( by the designer ) Want proof ? Think back on how many creatures are in the core box ( more than 50% of all cards ? ) and yet so few of them saw gameplay. Swarm books in general were not successful.
We have a lot more cards at our disposal now to neutralise one or a few creatures strategies.
To be successful today, you need a small army in support imo or a way to deal damage consistently without creatures. It's still possible to go with fewer creatures but those creatures better do a lot of damage then cfr Titanodon.
It's my belief this is how the designer originally envisioned the game to be played.
Well eagle wings and bear strentgth will likely go on him anyway.
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Vs Warlord, I might even start with 2 dissolve spores. Your goal is to get rid of the gauntlets and wands, his is to kill the spores faster than you can dissolve his stuff.
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Vs Warlord, I might even start with 2 dissolve spores. Your goal is to get rid of the gauntlets and wands, his is to kill the spores faster than you can dissolve his stuff.
Not a good idea.
One dissolve per round will do.
You have 3 Dissolves total in the book.
If you really want to Dissolve twice in 1 round let the FM spend one too.
Don't put a spore in play that will be useless after a few rounds.
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Have you seen my match vs enti? That might change your mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV_uLGZmm2s&t=2206s
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With 2 dissolve spores in the air i would probably just abandon an equipment strat. That limits the fms options. Half of your potential spores are occupied in the same capacity. Dunno if it's ideal, even if it did work once.
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With 2 dissolve spores in the air i would probably just abandon an equipment strat. That limits the fms options. Half of your potential spores are occupied in the same capacity. Dunno if it's ideal, even if it did work once.
Well what exactly was I supposed to do? Each round he will most likely kill a spore. So that wand will never go away.
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Deleted.
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Have you seen my match vs enti? That might change your mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV_uLGZmm2s&t=2206s
You CONCEDE when your mage has ZERO damage ??? What kind of a player are you ?
Where was the Vampiress on R2 ? You put no pressure on the Warlord at all.
Stick a Bear Strength Vampiress in his face and throw a wall in front of the Ballista to cut LoS to his Ballista AND Battle Forge and he will have other things to deal with.
You're just letting him pick on the Spores uncontested like sitting ducks and you don't adjust your play.
What's stopping you from pulling out Galvitar and going after him with your FM as well ?
What mage is better at dishing out damage than a FM ?
Bring out the Bear Strengths, Critical Strikes, Mongoose Agility if necessary.
You still have a Forcefield/Arcane Ward in your book.
If he brings out a Golem, Force Pull the mage and throw a wall between them. Keep up the pressure with the Vampiress. This game is far from over ... and you QUIT ?
If this game proves anything, it proves that you don't run this book very well as you don't seem to be aware of what options you have in there. You fail to put pressure on the opponent, read the board situation and adjust your play to deal with it.
Never said I was any good at applying pressure. Or, at all. :)
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A lot more of my games end with no dmg on anything. I play really passively and lose as a result of that.
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It is called Mage Wars. Aggression is kind of a requirement. The trick is knowing when your passive activities like casting creatures, gearing up or whatever needs to change to aggression to go after your opponent. That is situational and changes with every game. But reviewing the game afterwards, you can generally pinpoint where it should have happened.
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Hey Borg, relax man. He's a kid. Im not devaluing him in any way because i play against him a lot, and he's getting better, but not all of the heads here on the forums are adults. Ease up a bit.
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Agreed. I realised this too.
@RDD I am not ignoring your pms. I will get round to answering them all. :)
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Hey Romeo, if you are playing together often, perhaps during the match if there is a way you could communicate via some sort of chat tt would be helpful to explain certain game state points during the game. You could explain what you would observe if you were the opponent and share your thoughts from your side as well. I found it was very helpful to new players to help them gain perspective and recognize issues that may not be apparent to newer players.
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Hey Romeo, if you are playing together often, perhaps during the match if there is a way you could communicate via some sort of chat tt would be helpful to explain certain game state points during the game. You could explain what you would observe if you were the opponent and share your thoughts from your side as well. I found it was very helpful to new players to help them gain perspective and recognize issues that may not be apparent to newer players.
Well recently he has not had to do that as much. I should have beat him last night, but my surging wave did not slam him and he murdered my poor grizzly. And my vine snapper took like 5 attacks to kill his forge.
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The vagaries of the randomness. It happens. Good luck in future games. The best thing you can do to improve, is to not get discouraged, and keep playing. You will improve with time. Just learn from each game as you go.
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@Borg: I appreciate that you are trying to be helpful, but your post came off as rather rude and insulting.
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Deleted.
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i have not viewed the match being discussed, but the meye fm is probably one of the more challenging opponents to face at the moment. even for very experienced players. i know i am still mulling over how to go against them myself.
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I would think a wizard or holy mage with their strong Ethereal attacks would have an edge in knocking the eye out of the sky. Of course the eye is often backed by thought spores and they're easy to knock out of the sky if you can close in.
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See borg you took a step forward to take a step back again. If you're gonna apologize for hurting someone's feelings then do so. Don't follow it up by qualifying how it didn't insult YOU to say those things and then insult him again by calling his play "rude and insulting". He's a kid dude, just be nicen how hard is that?
To the OP i find that ignoring the eyes and destroying the spores feeding them is often the smartest choice. There's not many places to hide the squishy little wand critters on the 4by3 arena. Flying creatures help but i say knock the buggers out of the sky and the eyes will have far less to do and will consume the FMs spells (without wands that is) and make having cast eye in the first place a wasted action.
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Well, let's consider the situation where an opposing mage pops out his Elemental Wand / Jet Stream early to focus on the Spores quickly, possibly protected by Champion's Gauntlets.
The usual DissolveSpore approach may turn out to be too slow to handle this focused attack.
How can the FM react to this direct assault with equal speed ?
Which cards give him equal speed ?
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI03] Disarm[/mwcard]
A Spore with Glancing Blow should be able to live through 1 Jet Stream attack.
At that point the opposing mage will be within range 2 of the FM as well.
Reaction : Disarm the Gauntlets and Dissolve the Wand.
[mwcard=FWI09] Steal Equipment[/mwcard]
This one might be even better as this card bypasses the Champion's Gauntlets.
Potentially from range 2 : Force Pull enemy mage to within range 1 and take away his Wand with Steal Equipment. Why destroy something that might be of use to yourself ?
Anticipating to use this card at some point, the Wand of Healing may take the fall.
Other changes that seem appropriate :
As much as I like Piercing Thunderstrike, the 4 sbp's are a heavy cost and I think I'll prefer to expand my toolbox of attack spells with two other spells instead which may be more useful for the survival of the Spores.
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKA01] Surging Wave[/mwcard]
Only three attack dice but the ability to reliably put a Slam/Daze on a threatening creature round after round surely helps the survivability of the Spores ( and your Vampiress and FM as well of course ).
Bonus : possible push and ability to deal with Battle Forge.
[mwcard=MW1A09] Jet Stream[/mwcard]
Sometimes you just got to fight fire with fire.
Great in a mirror match and against Flying.
Gives you an Ethereal attack spell again.
[mwcard=FWA01] Arc Lightning[/mwcard]
Toolbox spell vs Lightning +2 opposition
Great to have around in the right situation but maybe a Force Hammer is more useful overall.
Undecided as of now.
An extra Teleport and a Tanglevine were added as well.
I'll update the book in the opening post.
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i believe the steal eq first destroys the target, so the gauntlets may be in play for preventing it.
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Steal equipment bypasses gauntlets completely. (unless you (very in-efficiently) use it to destroy a warmage / warlord only ring / weapon.)
Its particularly nasty to steal a wand with a discount rune on, as it will now cost the DWARF addiotional mana to destroy the wand, and you may benefit from the rune yourself by paying less when casting an attached spell.
Just remember if you replace the spell, then the jetstream (or whatever is on the wand) goes back to the dwarfs spellbook.
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i thought there was a ruling somewhere that the theft included destruction first.
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i thought there was a ruling somewhere that the theft included destruction first.
Thats new to me. Can you find where it is?
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Funny to see books changing. In reply #6 I asked you why there is no steal equipment. Your answer was a very good one. The main problem is the full cast and that it is not very efficient and very occasional. You have to be in range 1 to cast it since the eyes can't handle it. In early rounds (when the wand would come out) you need your full action to cast spores or vampiress not to walk.
Great card, but you convinced me it's not that versatile in this book 8)
Besides that I am also highly interested to know how steal equipment interacts with champion gauntlets.
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Funny to see books changing. In reply #6 I asked you why there is no steal equipment. Your answer was a very good one. The main problem is the full cast and that it is not very efficient and very occasional. You have to be in range 1 to cast it since the eyes can't handle it. In early rounds (when the wand would come out) you need your full action to cast spores or vampiress not to walk.
Great card, but you convinced me it's not that versatile in this book 8)
Touché ;)
Credit goes to you for bringing up that card early on, Chef.
Originally I didn't consider SE as I wasn't looking to steal weapons or armor.
If Jet Stream Wands become a more common counter to the Spores however it seems like Steal Equipment could be a good counter to that.
Besides that I am also highly interested to know how steal equipment interacts with champion gauntlets.
I'm sure Zuberi will have all the details about that interaction but I think it goes like this ( let's take Elemental Wand as example )
When you play SE you gain control of the Elemental Wand but it's still in the opposing Mage's Weapon or Shield slot, so Champion's Gauntlets still prevents it from being destroyed.
Champion's Gauntlets doesn't check who controls the equipment, it only checks location.
That means your only option is to attach it to yourself.
Works somewhat the other way round as when you would target a Lash of Hellfire.
Here your only option would be to destroy it as a FM can't equip it. ( Wouldn't be considered a great move though at that cost ;) )
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I would think a book like this would get a lot of value out of including a crumble and disperse to put on the thoughtspores in order to save mana. Is the opportunity cost of giving up the ability to move your thoughtspores too expensive?
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I would think a book like this would get a lot of value out of including a crumble and disperse to put on the thoughtspores in order to save mana. Is the opportunity cost of giving up the ability to move your thoughtspores too expensive?
Smart thinking!
Sadly, crumble and disperse do not work through eyes.
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I guess I didn't read the card closely enough. Thanks