Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: Reddicediaries on July 23, 2016, 07:56:21 AM
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I just realized that doubestriking with galvitar is much worse against high armor opponents. It is better against low armor or dodgey opponents.
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That's why you put cards like Rust, Acid Ball, Dissolve, Crumble or Devouring Jelly in your FM book.
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But why would you use your full action? Why not just put 2 enchants down and swing while moving.
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But why would you use your full action? Why not just put 2 enchants down and swing while moving.
are we playing same game?
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you don't always need to move, and against something with 0-1 or Very high armor or resilient, the number of dice is always better. Around 2 armor, the full attack will be only slightly better. For 3-4 armor it's probably beter to use the quick strike.
For creatures with more armor, you can lower it with the things Borg mentioned and attack afterwards.
I'm guessing that the grimoire will contain critical strike, which will be incredibly strong for the forcemaster.
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you don't always need to move, and against something with 0-1 or Very high armor or resilient, the number of dice is always better. Around 2 armor, the full attack will be only slightly better. For 3-4 armor it's probably beter to use the quick strike.
If we look at average damage then its never better to use quickstrike.
The piercing 2 will grant you maximum of 2 extra damage.
4 dice from second strike will grant you 2 critical on average.
This means we need to add in stuff like veterans belt, aegis or agony into the mix before the quick attack is better.
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True, but piercing is almost certain while you depend on luck for critical hits. (For better or worse)
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True, but piercing is almost certain while you depend on luck for critical hits. (For better or worse)
Why is it more certain that you roll normal hits vs critical hits?
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my point is...
you roll 4 dice with first galvitar swing.... the chance of rolling no NORMAL hits (so piercing is useless) is the same as not rolling any CRITICAL hits on second swing.
Dont see why 1 is more luck dependant than the other.
Lets say that the enemy has 3 armor and 3 life left. You have bearstrength.
You can choose between 1 attack with 6 dice and 2 pierce or a attack with 6 dice followed up by attack with 4 dice.
What do you pick?
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the thing is in that case, you will statiscally do 3 dmg on the first hit and 1 on the second. Compare that to 6 dice vs 1 armor.
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the thing is in that case, you will statiscally do 3 dmg on the first hit and 1 on the second. Compare that to 6 dice vs 1 armor.
Thats so wrong you have no idea.
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It might be, im not a math genius.
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I dont say that the chances of normal is lower than crits, but the assuming you roll enough damage, especially when you have some melee +x, which most fm have, the piercing will make a difference. Only when you roll 1 or zero normal damage, the piercing fails. The chances.for this are low.
In the other case with high armor, your second roll will almost purely depend on rolling crits. your variance is much higher.
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In the other case with high armor, your second roll will almost purely depend on rolling crits. your variance is much higher.
The math states the opposite.
Less variance with double strike.
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Tomorrow i'll check and calculate. :P
Maybe Im wrong.
Anyway, we both agree that the doublestrike is almost always better.
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I like it simple. Concerning this discussion with Galvitar I ask myself: What is the damage potential of the attacks?
4 Dice Pierding 2 can deal a maximum of 8 damage.
4 Dice + 4 Dice can deal a maximum of 16 Damage.
Why would you ever choose Thrust to attack when you can attack with Double Strike?
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I'm only talking about when you have 2+ meele buffs.
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I mean even with the mellee buffs, the numbers schwenn put up are still valid. Even with mellee +4 the numbers on max damage are: Quick attack w/piercing max damage 16, full attack doublestrike max damage is 24. Still i see what you're trying to say, its just that every time you took the dice you have a 33 percent chance to roll a crit, normal, or blank per die rolled. The more dice one rolls, the more 33 percent chances they get at hitting with that crit. More dice is pretty much always better when the costs are the same
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On Doublestrike Armor applies on both attacks. This is why with 2+ melee buffs, thrust is better in my opioun.
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Extra dice is better then piercing, this is why Wolf Fury is cheaper then Bear Strength.
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what would you rather have 6 dice np pericing vs 3+ armor then 4, or 8 dice piercing 3?
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You add melee bonus to the first strike of Galvitar or any double strike just FWI. So you don't lose the dice total for melee + bonuses when attacking with double strike. Also with double strike any piercing bonus is applied twice (unless specified). So the common ones -Wolf fury, Lion savagery actually get used twice with their piercing bonus in the double strike.
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hmm, I thought doubestike doesnt get meele buffs on the second attack.
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double strike is full attack, lion savegry wont work.
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[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE06]Lion Savagery[/mwcard] grants Charge+2 and Piercing +1. Piercing +1 part works even when standing still.
hmm, I thought doubestike doesnt get meele buffs on the second attack.
Melee +X works only for first possible attack in attack sequence, piercing +Y triggers in every attack in attack sequence.
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Ah. Thanks for the piercing clarification!
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With damage calculator:
3 armor
melee +2
Doublestrike
Average: 6
Variance: 5.471
Piercing
Average: 5.088
Variance: 3.817
On average, the doublestrike has 1 more damage, but the variance is larger. You can more easily have a much better or much worse roll. If you don't need more damage (aka, target has 4-5 life left), I would rather have a lower variance than a higher average.
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Your approach is flawed. While its more variance for the double strike to hit its AVERAGE (remember its a higher number than the single strike with pierce) - its not really relevant if its variance is LESS when it comes to reaching the average damage of the Single strike attack.
For a Forcemaster with bearstrength and Galvitar:
Using quick attack (6 dice + 2 pierce):
78.627% chance of 4 or more damage
61.240% chance of 5 or more damage
Using double strike (6 dice followed up by second attack with 4 dice):
85.710% chance of 4 or more damage
72.992% chance of 5 ore more damage
EDIT:
I forgot to mention its a target with 3 armor.
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Your approach is flawed. While its more variance for the double strike to hit its AVERAGE (remember its a higher number than the single strike with pierce) - its not really relevant if its variance is LESS when it comes to reaching the average damage of the Single strike attack.
For a Forcemaster with bearstrength and Galvitar:
Using quick attack (6 dice + 2 pierce):
78.627% chance of 4 or more damage
61.240% chance of 5 or more damage
Using double strike (6 dice followed up by second attack with 4 dice):
85.710% chance of 4 or more damage
72.992% chance of 5 ore more damage
EDIT:
I forgot to mention its a target with 3 armor.
Yes, I'm wrong. You are correct! Thanks for pointing it out. :D