Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: iNano78 on June 01, 2016, 05:51:11 PM
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Does a Spiked Pit marker disappear if it fails the d12=9+ roll? Or does it only disappear after it is successful? (Wording in the rules is vague and could be interpreted either way)
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The trap token stays until the trap is tripped by rolling a 9+.
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I think the wording (with 2 sentences) isn't vague at all: it indicates that the marker disapears even if the roll fails!
the rules should be erated.
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I think the wording (with 2 sentences) isn't vague at all: it indicates that the marker disapears even if the roll fails!
the rules should be erated.
The very first time we played it, I think we interpreted it "as written" and removed the token the first time a non-flying creature entered the zone, whether it triggered or not. Then we realized it's only a 33% chance to trigger, so the intent must be that it sticks around until it triggers (since otherwise it rarely is more than a zone that hinders non-flying creatures)... so we have since been playing "as intended." It's a matter of what the "Then," is referring to.
Here's the rule book text for reference:
At the start of the game, place the Spiked Pit marker on this zone. While the Spiked Pit Trap marker is on this
zone, when a Non-Flying Corporeal creature enters this zone, roll the effect die: On a 9+ that creature receives an Unavoidable attack of 4 attack dice with the Piercing +2 trait. Then, remove the Spiked Pit Trap marker. Also, this zone hinders Non-Flying Corporeal creatures, regardless of whether it has a Spiked Pit Trap marker or not.
Better wording would have been "On a 9+, that creature receives an Unavoidable attack of 4 attack dice with the Piercing +2 trait after which the Spiked Pit Trap marker is removed." Or something like that. It needs to explicitly be part of "what happens after rolling a 9+" and not "what happens after a non-flying corporeal creature enters the zone".
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I agree that "Then" is amgiguous.
It would already be different if it became part of the previous sentence: ", then".
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There's a full colon there, that usualy indicates a triggerable circumstance that happens as a whole. So everything after the colon happens whenever the trigger is described. What follows the colon is on a 9+, that means whatever follows that only happens on a9+. Made sense to me
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There's a full colon there, that usualy indicates a triggerable circumstance that happens as a whole.
what do you mean by 'usually'? Is there any kind of definition anywhere in the Mage Wars rules?
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What happens when there is a Teleport Trap enchantment in the zone? Who decides which effect triggers first (if there is a choice to be made)? As there is no controller of the zone effect, is it the controller of the active creature?
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I could be mistaken on this, but here is my answer:
Both effects trigger simultaneously during the Entering Zone Effects step of movement. They can not take effect simultaneously though, so we have a timing issue. Despite the chance that the person with Initiative might not control any of the objects in question, the game has well established the fact that they are the ones who decide any timing issues that arise during game play whenever it is in question. Thus, whomever has Initiative should decide which occurs first.
However, even if Teleport Trap occurs first, the Spiked Pit still has to resolve it's triggered effect. The teleport happens before it makes it's attack (if it rolls a 9+), so the rules about moving during an attack do not apply. They moved before the attack, not during. But there is still a catch. The rulebook doesn't specify this, but the marker itself does have a melee attack icon on it. And if it is a melee attack, then if the target has moved out of the zone it will be out of range of the attack during the Declare Attack Step. This would result in the attack being cancelled.
Then the question becomes whether or not the marker is removed if the attack is cancelled? I am not sure, but given what's in the rulebook and Laddinfance's previous statement, I would say it is removed whenever it is tripped by rolling a 9+ on the effect die, regardless of if the attack was successful or not. This topic could use an update in the Supplement.
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Despite the chance that the person with Initiative might not control any of the objects in question, the game has well established the fact that they are the ones who decide any timing issues that arise during game play whenever it is in question. Thus, whomever has Initiative should decide which occurs first.
the person with initiative doesn't choose, he goes first.
i think it's no help here. rules should give an initiative vlue to neutral mecanismes (after all players or befor all players)
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the person with initiative doesn't choose, he goes first.
I believe you are thinking about revealing enchantments. The Spiked Pit tile is not an enchantment and doesn't fall under those rules. I refer you to the Codex.
Initiative (Game Term)
Players take turns having the initiative, which is noted with an initiative marker. Whoever has the initiative gets to use their quickcast action first during a Quickcast Phase, and gets to take the first Action Phase during the Action Stage. Also, it is used to resolve any timing issues.
This is a timing issue. Whomever has initiative resolves the issue. Similar to what happens during the Upkeep phase, where the wording on page 7 of the rulebook is "In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order."
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but the rules on p6 say: the player with the initiative goes first "whenever you must determine the order of events"!
for me there's only one moment with choice, it's during the upkeep.
normally each player chooses for his effectrs, and the player with initiative chooses if necessary (special upkeep rule p7 gets over normal rule p6)
back to the pit: there's no rule since he has no intitiative and doesn't trigger during upkeep.
i think we need a rulling (giving an initiative to neutral effects).
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In this case, you have two effects triggered by the same thing. One of those is uncontrolled. So, Zuberi is correct. Initiative is used to break timing issues like this.
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In this case, you have two effects triggered by the same thing. One of those is uncontrolled. So, Zuberi is correct. Initiative is used to break timing issues like this.
Just to make things clear for everyone then, if a creature has 2 life after damage left and has a regrowth and a ghoul rot on them, this doesn't count as a timing issue, and it's still decided by the creature's controller, not by player with initiative?
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In this case, you have two effects triggered by the same thing. One of those is uncontrolled. So, Zuberi is correct. Initiative is used to break timing issues like this.
but i don't find the rule on which he stands to say that the personne with the initiative will choose...
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In this case, you have two effects triggered by the same thing. One of those is uncontrolled. So, Zuberi is correct. Initiative is used to break timing issues like this.
Just to make things clear for everyone then, if a creature has 2 life after damage left and has a regrowth and a ghoul rot on them, this doesn't count as a timing issue, and it's still decided by the creature's controller, not by player with initiative?
normal upkeep situation, the afected creature's controler chooses.
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Thank you all for the full clarification.
@Sailor Vulcan and Exid
The Arena rulebook is perfectly clear. See page 7 and the Codex entry on Initiative:
"You always choose the order in
which events that affect your
creatures and objects occur
during this phase. In the rare
case that a timing issue occurs,
the player with the initiative
decides the order.
Example: You control a Highland
Unicorn with the Regenerate 2 trait
that has a Burn marker on it. Since
the creature has a lot of damage on
it, the Burn effect could destroy
it. You can choose to resolve the
Regenerate trait first or the Burn
condition first."
"Initiative
Players take turns having the initiative, which is noted with an
initiative marker. Whoever has the initiative gets to use their
quickcastaction first during a Quickcast Phase, and gets to
take the first Action Phase during the Action Stage. Also, it is
used to resolve any timing issues."
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In this case, you have two effects triggered by the same thing. One of those is uncontrolled. So, Zuberi is correct. Initiative is used to break timing issues like this.
but i don't find the rule on which he stands to say that the personne with the initiative will choose...
The Codex entry for Initiative is the best place I can think of to point you to, because anything else would be describing how the general rule is applied to a specific situation, such as page 7 is talking about the Upkeep Phase, and you'll say it doesn't apply here. So, the general rule is that Initiative is used to resolve ANY timing issues. This statement is a little vague, but you've had official confirmation from Arcane Wonders by way of Laddinfance now with my interpretation of it to mean that the person with Initiative would choose in this situation. There's really no other way to interpret it that I can see, since a neutral Initiative does not exist. Such a thing is never hinted at anywhere in the rules, and you thinking it's a good idea does not make it a part of the game. If you can think of an alternative way to interpret how Initiative would resolve this issue, a way that is actually supported by the rules, then I would love to discuss that with you, but otherwise you have the answer. You are of course also free to make any houserules that you want for your own plays.
In this case, you have two effects triggered by the same thing. One of those is uncontrolled. So, Zuberi is correct. Initiative is used to break timing issues like this.
Just to make things clear for everyone then, if a creature has 2 life after damage left and has a regrowth and a ghoul rot on them, this doesn't count as a timing issue, and it's still decided by the creature's controller, not by player with initiative?
Both effects would be decided by the controller of the creature. Timing issues actually are fairly rare, like the rulebook says.
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In this case, you have two effects triggered by the same thing. One of those is uncontrolled. So, Zuberi is correct. Initiative is used to break timing issues like this.
but i don't find the rule on which he stands to say that the personne with the initiative will choose...
The Codex entry for Initiative is the best place I can think of to point you to, because anything else would be describing how the general rule is applied to a specific situation, such as page 7 is talking about the Upkeep Phase, and you'll say it doesn't apply here. So, the general rule is that Initiative is used to resolve ANY timing issues. This statement is a little vague, but you've had official confirmation from Arcane Wonders by way of Laddinfance now with my interpretation of it to mean that the person with Initiative would choose in this situation. There's really no other way to interpret it that I can see, since a neutral Initiative does not exist. Such a thing is never hinted at anywhere in the rules, and you thinking it's a good idea does not make it a part of the game. If you can think of an alternative way to interpret how Initiative would resolve this issue, a way that is actually supported by the rules, then I would love to discuss that with you, but otherwise you have the answer. You are of course also free to make any houserules that you want for your own plays.
I have the official answer: the personne with initiative decides if there's a timing problem and the rule "initiative going first" can't apply.
But this rulling doesn't come from the rules! The fact that the initiative is "used to resolve any timing issues" doesn't imply that the person with initiative will choose (this person could flip a coin, he could ask the player on his left to choose, he could choose with a condition,...).
What i say is that Laddinfance's rulling solves a rull blank and should be added in the supplement.
(my idea to have a neutral initiative seems more logical to me... but as you say it's not me to decide!)
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I agree that this specific application of the general principal is not currently mentioned specifically in the rules and could have a place in the Supplement. Other than Laddinfance's confirmation, my answer was extrapolating a little bit based upon how it is handled elsewhere in the game.