Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: rodriguekhalil on April 14, 2015, 02:26:16 PM
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I've been wanting to use [mwcard=DNC05]Ichthellid[/mwcard] for a while now and didn't know how. After searching the forums for a bit, I realized that an Ichthellid based Necromancer is very difficult to pull off and would only work against a swarm or level 1 creatures spellbook.
So, after thinking about it, I came up with a strategy that just might work: using Ichthellid larvas on my own creatures! Obviously, I need living creatures so Necromancer is out of the question. I would preferably need level 1 or 2 creatures that I can summon every turn, so my guess is: Adramalech Warlock.
Here is the idea: summon one or two Ichthellids and a few cheap demons (mainly [mwcard=MW1C15]Firebrand Imp[/mwcard], [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC13]Wildfire Imp[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC08]Infernian Scourger[/mwcard] as of this print), attack and impregnate my own demons, send them to attack the enemy, beefing them by burning the opponent and sacrificing the Ichthellid with [mwcard=MW1J20]Sacrificial Altar[/mwcard]. They won't stay alive more than one turn, but it's part of the plan. Once they die, they respawn for free into an Ichthellid. At this point, I'm gaining an advantage: the newly hatched Ichthellid will come back right where the previous demon was destroyed, in range to hit right away next turn.
If that works, I basically found a way to extend my Imps' life, and I'm constantly keeping the same number of creatures in play without paying their mana cost.
That's my strategy: is it doable? Am I being too optimistic? I have all expansions, what would be the best cards to use for this spellbook? What would be the problems I can encounter?
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Instead of going through all those shenanigans to get a "free" [mwcard=DNC05]Ichthellid[/mwcard] to replace the one you sacrificed AND the imp you impregnated... why not just attack with the first Ichthelid and call it a day? In other words, I don't see how you're coming out "ahead" after casting Sacrificial Altar and an Ichthelid and an imp just so you can eventually get one Ichthellid (total) later.
After already seeing this thread (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=15369.0), I'm starting to think you just really want to attack your own creatures. Might as well just cast [mwcard=FWI05]Mass Sleep[/mwcard] on your swarm for another excuse. LOL.
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Ichthellid is non-living and so the egg cannot be transferred to it. Also, I think Icthellids are too expensive for so little health to build a book around no matter whose creatures you're trying to hit.
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Yes, and there is another problem with them. You goal is to beat the other mage, but the larvae only work with non-mage creatures. Not a good synergy.
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Unlike the vampirism-vs-friendlies tactic (which I generally feel is a bad idea except for extremely niche scenarios), I can see potential with this idea.
The main problem with Icthellids is that to get full use out of their ability, you have to kill enemy creatures, when you would rather be attacking the enemy mage.
With this strategy, you can prime your own creatures to get free Ichthellids if they die, which makes some sense.
Unfortunately, Ichthellids are weak, and the creature whose corpse gives birth to one is likely at least as powerful as the Ichthellid, if not more so. I would generally do this with Level 2 creatures to avoid accidentally killing the creature you are trying to Ichthellidize (which is now a word). Attacking your own creatures is still a bad idea, since you are weakening your offense.
Not sure if demons are the best bet here. What about goblins? Goblin Bombers could be an interesting use of this tactic.
This could be a way to get Icthellid in use, but I am not sure if even this will be enough. It is still somewhat inefficient, and you would need to respawn a lot of Ichthellids to make it worth your while.
Yes, and there is another problem with them. You goal is to beat the other mage, but the larvae only work with non-mage creatures. Not a good synergy.
Actually, you can totally impregnate the enemy mage. This is relevant because of the Necromancer's Plague Master ability; those undead larvae are easy to plant (no d12 needed), and cost 5 mana to remove!
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One of the two games I played at BGGCon was agaist a Necro who used his Ichthellids as cheap guards for him, as all of his zombies had the pest trait. This redirected the attack to the spider and he got to counterstrike and place an egg, it was quite effective and bought him enough time to move all of his crawlers in for frenzy, which I saw coming and conceded the game.
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One of the two games I played at BGGCon was agaist a Necro who used his Ichthellids as cheap guards for him, as all of his zombies had the pest trait. This redirected the attack to the spider and he got to counterstrike and place an egg, it was quite effective and bought him enough time to move all of his crawlers in for frenzy, which I saw coming and conceded the game.
I want to do this now.
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I've been wanting to use [mwcard=DNC05]Ichthellid[/mwcard] for a while now and didn't know how. After searching the forums for a bit, I realized that an Ichthellid based Necromancer is very difficult to pull off and would only work against a swarm or level 1 creatures spellbook.
So, after thinking about it, I came up with a strategy that just might work: using Ichthellid larvas on my own creatures! Obviously, I need living creatures so Necromancer is out of the question. I would preferably need level 1 or 2 creatures that I can summon every turn, so my guess is: Adramalech Warlock.
Here is the idea: summon one or two Ichthellids and a few cheap demons (mainly [mwcard=MW1C15]Firebrand Imp[/mwcard], [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC13]Wildfire Imp[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC08]Infernian Scourger[/mwcard] as of this print), attack and impregnate my own demons, send them to attack the enemy, beefing them by burning the opponent and sacrificing the Ichthellid with [mwcard=MW1J20]Sacrificial Altar[/mwcard]. They won't stay alive more than one turn, but it's part of the plan. Once they die, they respawn for free into an Ichthellid. At this point, I'm gaining an advantage: the newly hatched Ichthellid will come back right where the previous demon was destroyed, in range to hit right away next turn.
If that works, I basically found a way to extend my Imps' life, and I'm constantly keeping the same number of creatures in play without paying their mana cost.
That's my strategy: is it doable? Am I being too optimistic? I have all expansions, what would be the best cards to use for this spellbook? What would be the problems I can encounter?
@rodriguekhalil (Does tagging even work in the forums?) This tactic can work! I've actually made a deck that I want to showcase on Arcane Duels. Here's how my version works:
Turn 1: Ravenous Ghoul, mana crystal
Turn 2: Ichthilid, face down enchantment of choice
Turn 3: Acolyte of the bog queen, Sacrificial alter; Attack your Aco with the Ichthilid,Sacrifice the Aco, Eat the remains with the Ghoul. l
Turn 4 and Up: Lather, Rinse, Repeat
I've tried to use spawn points but they're too slow, So this method only works well if you stand still. I chose Aco because she's the cheapest creature that will always survive against the Ichthilid's attack. You get a creature that is more powerful than a level one but typically weaker than a level 2. At the same time you get a ghoul that becomes very powerful. If your opponent goes aggressive at any point you drop the evolution trick and prepare for war.
During the mid-game use the ichthilid that still has an egg on it to attack a choice enemy creature and blast it with everything you have. This gives you some battlefield control and brings one more Icth. out to play. Then repeatedly kill off any of the spiders that are injured with your alter and return the ones from your graveyard with the eggs. An Ichthilid gives +2 melee and Piercing +2 when destroyed with the alter so it's pretty effective.
That's the overall idea. Although it's vulnerable to aggression it's actually very mana efficient. If the opponent comes close you'll have a ghoul turn one that can lay some pressure on them. This is the build so far.
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Wow, that's actually very close to what I'm thinking, but the combo with ravenous ghoul makes it even better!
And I thought it was an original idea... Oh well, anyways, I've got my necromancer idea for my next game!
After already seeing this thread (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=15369.0), I'm starting to think you just really want to attack your own creatures. Might as well just cast [mwcard=FWI05]Mass Sleep[/mwcard] on your swarm for another excuse. LOL.
LOL! It looks like I want to kill my own creatures, right?
Actually, I was thinking about friendly attacks because I know they can be very useful in other games (summoner wars or smash up, for instance). So I'm trying to see if they can be more useful in Mage Wars than waking up creatures. It can definitely surprise the opponent at the very least.
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Hey, it's pretty original. Especially because no one seems to agree with the idea lol. Keep at it, let me know how it goes!
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@rodriguekhalil (Does tagging even work in the forums?) This tactic can work! I've actually made a deck that I want to showcase on Arcane Duels. Here's how my version works:
Turn 1: Ravenous Ghoul, mana crystal
Turn 2: Ichthilid, face down enchantment of choice
Turn 3: Acolyte of the bog queen, Sacrificial alter; Attack your Aco with the Ichthilid,Sacrifice the Aco, Eat the remains with the Ghoul. l
Turn 4 and Up: Lather, Rinse, Repeat
I've tried to use spawn points but they're too slow, So this method only works well if you stand still. I chose Aco because she's the cheapest creature that will always survive against the Ichthilid's attack. You get a creature that is more powerful than a level one but typically weaker than a level 2. At the same time you get a ghoul that becomes very powerful. If your opponent goes aggressive at any point you drop the evolution trick and prepare for war.
During the mid-game use the ichthilid that still has an egg on it to attack a choice enemy creature and blast it with everything you have. This gives you some battlefield control and brings one more Icth. out to play. Then repeatedly kill off any of the spiders that are injured with your alter and return the ones from your graveyard with the eggs. An Ichthilid gives +2 melee and Piercing +2 when destroyed with the alter so it's pretty effective.
That's the overall idea. Although it's vulnerable to aggression it's actually very mana efficient. If the opponent comes close you'll have a ghoul turn one that can lay some pressure on them. This is the build so far.
Wow. That is really cool. Let me see if I can figure out the total creature costs (ignoring other spells):
Turn 1: Ghoul (13)
Turn 2: Ichthellid (9)
Turn 3: Acolyte (5) -> Ichthellid (0)
Turn 4: Acolyte (5) -> Ichthellid (0)
Turn 5: Acolyte (5) -> Ichthellid (0)
So by turn 6, you have 4 Ichthellids and a ghoul with a monstrous 7 dice quick attack (on a fast chassis!) for a total of 37 mana (out of a total of 70 channeled).
At this point, the Ghoul is stronger (overall) than a Grizzly, but we'll conservatively put his value at 17, since he is at least as strong.
That means each Ichthellid has cost you at most 5 mana and a full action, on average. Not bad at all.
If your opponent charges, I suppose the other Ichthellids can attack them using the sacrifical altar bonus.
If nothing else, this is a great way to spawn cheap Ichthellids while powering up a monstrous ghoul.
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Ichthelids are very bad agro creatures. As others have noted, agro wants to hit the opponent, not the opponent's creatures.
Control, on the other hand, can make very good use of Icthelid. Graveyard + Meditation Amulet + lots of Undead Bugs is very efficient at grinding the board to a halt and generating a large mana surplus. It'd be my go to "casual tournament" list if it wasn't so reliant on my opponent bringing living creatures, and if the book had a better finisher than Sardonyx + Drain Soul.
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Wow. That is really cool. Let me see if I can figure out the total creature costs (ignoring other spells):
Turn 1: Ghoul (13)
Turn 2: Ichthellid (9)
Turn 3: Acolyte (5) -> Ichthellid (0)
Turn 4: Acolyte (5) -> Ichthellid (0)
Turn 5: Acolyte (5) -> Ichthellid (0)
So by turn 6, you have 4 Ichthellids and a ghoul with a monstrous 7 dice quick attack (on a fast chassis!) for a total of 37 mana (out of a total of 70 channeled).
I actually count the Acos as costing six since it costs 1 mana to transfer the egg. What I like most about this book is that it's relatively efficient while being a themed deck at the same time. Summoning cultists so they can be sacrificed to zombie bugs and eaten by a ghoul is just so Lovecraftian.
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Couldn't it be possible to use the clerics even more efficient if you also let them pray by an altar (let's say altar of skulls) each turn before the combo?
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Couldn't it be possible to use the clerics even more efficient if you also let them pray by an altar (let's say altar of skulls) each turn before the combo?
That would require delaying the combo. The clerics can't pray on the same turn they are brought into play, but they can be impregnated, sacrificed, and eaten on that turn.
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Couldn't it be possible to use the clerics even more efficient if you also let them pray by an altar (let's say altar of skulls) each turn before the combo?
Just an idea:
[mwcard=MW1J17]Pentagram[/mwcard] w/ Harmonize
Would be a more efficient way to get the Ace into the arena. Requires Warlock instead of Necro
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But then where do you get the mana for the Ghoul?
Ghoul is 13 mana. Pentagram + Harmonize is 18. Ichthellid is 9. You need 40 mana, 2 full actions, and 2 quick actions to cast all of these, before you can start summoning clerics. I can't see a way to do it, especially with the Warlock's lower channeling.
You would have the 40 mana by turn 4, it is true. But that means you can't really be summoning clerics until Turn 5.
Turn 1: 19 mana
Turn 2: 28 mana
Turn 3: 37 mana
Turn 4: 46 mana
The delay could be fatal, since this takes time to set up anyways.
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But then where do you get the mana for the Ghoul?
Ghoul is 13 mana. Pentagram + Harmonize is 18. Ichthellid is 9. You need 40 mana, 2 full actions, and 2 quick actions to cast all of these, before you can start summoning clerics. I can't see a way to do it, especially with the Warlock's lower channeling.
You would have the 40 mana by turn 4, it is true. But that means you can't really be summoning clerics until Turn 5.
Turn 1: 19 mana
Turn 2: 28 mana
Turn 3: 37 mana
Turn 4: 46 mana
The delay could be fatal, since this takes time to set up anyways.
Okay, the pentagram can cast the clerics with its own mana supply round 3-4. But you still can't start impregnating the clerics until round 5, since that is the earliest you can act with both undead creatures.
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Couldn't it be possible to use the clerics even more efficient if you also let them pray by an altar (let's say altar of skulls) each turn before the combo?
That would require delaying the combo. The clerics can't pray on the same turn they are brought into play, but they can be impregnated, sacrificed, and eaten on that turn.
Sure, but it will only be 1 turn delay in total. And you will have 4 counters on the altar.
Another idea could be raise dead on your sacrificed creatures to gain some crowd control. The new Imp is especially good with this since it can teleport and neutralize the zombie effect a bit.
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Another idea could be raise dead on your sacrificed creatures to gain some crowd control. The new Imp is especially good with this since it can teleport and neutralize the zombie effect a bit.
If you do this, you can't buff the ghoul, since its ability obliterates the creatures it consumes.
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I must definetly missing something. [mwcard=DNC05]Ichthellid[/mwcard] 1 mana for transfer and thats it. If you want another egg token, you need another ichthellid...
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I must definetly missing something. [mwcard=DNC05]Ichthellid[/mwcard] 1 mana for transfer and thats it. If you want another egg token, you need another ichthellid...
Each new Ichthellid comes with a new egg. Each cycle of this combo creates the egg that you need for the next cycle.
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Couldn't it be possible to use the clerics even more efficient if you also let them pray by an altar (let's say altar of skulls) each turn before the combo?
That would require delaying the combo. The clerics can't pray on the same turn they are brought into play, but they can be impregnated, sacrificed, and eaten on that turn.
Sure, but it will only be 1 turn delay in total. And you will have 4 counters on the altar.
I've thought about making more profit out of the clerics sacrifice with either an [mwcard=DNJ01]Altar of Skulls[/mwcard] or a [mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard]. Granted, I would gain a lot of mana/skull tokens during these first rounds, but I can't find a way to do it without delaying the cycle at least one turn.
I also considered attacking with the Ichthehllids early during the game to make profit of the Melee +1 and Piercing +1 bonus given by the Aco's sacrifice. I guess that can be done, but it will depend on the creatures and the mage I'm facing. I wouldn't want to lose too many of my creatures before the Ghoul is ready to battle.
I'm building right now a spell book around this strategy, should be able to post it soon. We'll what it looks like.
EDIT: I just realized that Altar of skulls works only when enemy creatures are destroyed, doesn't work as well.
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Couldn't it be possible to use the clerics even more efficient if you also let them pray by an altar (let's say altar of skulls) each turn before the combo?
That would require delaying the combo. The clerics can't pray on the same turn they are brought into play, but they can be impregnated, sacrificed, and eaten on that turn.
Sure, but it will only be 1 turn delay in total. And you will have 4 counters on the altar.
I've thought about making more profit out of the clerics sacrifice with either an [mwcard=DNJ01]Altar of Skulls[/mwcard] or a [mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard]. Granted, I would gain a lot of mana/skull tokens during these first rounds, but I can't find a way to do it without delaying the cycle at least one turn.
I also considered attacking with the Ichthehllids early during the game to make profit of the Melee +1 and Piercing +1 bonus given by the Aco's sacrifice. I guess that can be done, but it will depend on the creatures and the mage I'm facing. I wouldn't want to lose too many of my creatures before the Ghoul is ready to battle.
I'm building right now a spell book around this strategy, should be able to post it soon. We'll what it looks like.
[mwcard=DNC01]Acolyte of the Bog Queen[/mwcard] cannot be summoned from a graveyard so which is why I was thinking that pentagram might work better.
Once pentagram and altar are up and running that machine takes care of itself.
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EDIT: I just realized that Altar of skulls works only when enemy creatures are destroyed, doesn't work as well.
You can still pray.
It would be nice to see this combo in action by Arcane Duels! (hint hint...)
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It would be nice to see this combo in action by Arcane Duels! (hint hint...)
You can count on it! I've been brewing this spell book for awhile so it would be a shame not to have it in an episode.
For everyone talking about praying to alters and other tactics, I would love it if you tried that build out! I'm worried that this tactic is too slow as is, but if you're successful with such plays then it means that my fear is invalid. It'd be great if I could be proven wrong here ;D
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Looking forward to it!
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I tried this strategy against a Warlock (original one) who was buffed with multiple enchantments. The Warlock had Aegis 1, four armor and a Vet belt. The multiple Ichthelids were no match for it once the Ghoul was gone.
However, I have to admit that I played the Ghoul wrong. I left it to defend my Necromancer (in a zone with Fortified Position). Instead, I should have been much more offensive with it while summoning my other undead creatures. That would have helped to keep the Warlock away from my Necro during this time.
So, my thinking is to build up the Ghoul, have it go on the offensive alone while summoning many other creatures, and then have the mass engage the enemy.
I still haven't played anything but a solo Mage though, so I'm thinking that this may have been one of the toughest match-ups to face.
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Okay, so here it is. The following book is inspired from this thread. Probably not as good as Intangible's, but I tried!
As was stated in the beginning of this thread, the following book goes like this:
T1 (20) : Ravenous Ghoul + Mana Crystal
T2 (13) : Ichthellid + Enchantment on myself
T3 (13) : Acolyte + Sacrificial Altar. Ichthellid attacks Aco, Sacrifice Aco, Ravenous eats the remains.
T4 to T7: repeat cycle if possible.
I continue repeating as much as the opponent allows me to.
Then, depending on how the opponent is playing, I either continue to cast enchantments and summon creatures or I equip myself and go help Ravenous Ghoul. In that case, Buff myself with Bear Strength/Rhino Hide/Cheetah speed and eventually tranfuse them to Malacoda or vice versa.
Another aspect of this book is poison damage I can make. If I can pull it off (that's a big if), I trap my opponent in a poison gas cloud + Malacoda zone while having Idol of Pestilence out and hit him with all I have.
The 2 Drain Soul will help either finish the opponent or put a poison condition on him to use my ability. Of course, I use Deathlock only if the opponent and his creatures are regenerating too much. I intend to use Poisoned blood first.
That's it! Let me know if you have any comments or if you try the book.
[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]Buddy Ichthellid Necromancer[/spellbookname]
[mage]Necromancer[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Attack[/spellclass]
[mwcard=DNA01]2 x Acid Ball[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjuration[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWJ02]1 x Archer's Watchtower[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1j19]1 x Deathlock[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1j11]1 x Idol of Pestilence[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1j12]1 x Mana Crystal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J18]1 x Poison Gas Cloud[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J20]1 x Sacrificial Altar[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1j22]2 x Tanglevine[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNW02]2 x Wall of Bones[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Creature[/spellclass]
[mwcard=DNC01]4 x Acolyte of the Bog Queen[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNC05]4 x Ichthellid[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1C23]1 x Malacoda[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNC11]1 x Ravenous Ghoul[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNC13]2 x Skeletal Archer[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE02]1 x Akiro's Favor[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E01]1 x Bear Strength[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E05]1 x Cheetah Speed[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKE04]2 x Enchantment Transfusion[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1e14]1 x Enfeeble[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E19]2 x Ghoul Rot[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E27]1 x Marked for Death[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E29]3 x Nullify[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E31]2 x Poisoned Blood[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E36]1 x Rhino Hide[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=DNQ01]1 x Cloak of Shadows[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ03]1 x Deathshroud Staff[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q05]1 x Demonhide Armor[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ06]1 x Eagleclaw Boots[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q07]1 x Elemental Cloak[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q11]1 x Gauntlets of Strength[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q18]1 x Mage Staff[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ07]1 x Veteran's Belt[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Incantation[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI03]2 x Disarm[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i06]2 x Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i07]1 x Dissolve[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKI01]2 x Drain Soul[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I12]2 x Force Push[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i24]1 x Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i28]1 x Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNI03]1 x Reassemble[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: 120 pts[/cost]
[/spellbook]