Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: GeorgeFalcon on September 03, 2014, 08:43:48 PM
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I am wondering if this works because it is a neat trick since teleport isn't hindered for movement.
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sorry i ment wildfire imp =P
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I am wondering if this works because it is a neat trick since teleport isn't hindered for movement.
A Creature must take a move action and move at least one zone in order to get a Charge bonus.
Neither teleporting the Firebrand Imp (movement generated by a spell), nor having the Wildfire Imp use its ability to teleport "instead of" taking a move action will gain either Creature a charge bonus as neither will be using a move action.
A Fast Wildfire Imp could use a teleport instead of a move action (if the prerequisites are met), and then move into an adjacent zone with a second move action (presuming that it was not hindered upon completing its teleport) whereupon it would gain the Charge bonus.
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DaveW is correct. The definition of Charge states that a creature has to take a move action and move at least 1 zone. The text on Wildfire Imp specifies that the teleport is "instead of" taking a move action, therefore you have not fulfilled that requirement for charge.
It is interesting though, that the text on Blue Gremlin would allow you to gain the charge bonus with it's teleport ability.
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teleport does not let you gain the charge bonus.
a list of such answers are here:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14204.0
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Teleport by itself does not, but as written the Blue Gremlin is actually taking a normal move action while using it's teleport ability. Therefore, it would qualify for the charge bonus. There's nothing in the thread that you linked to that shows otherwise.
Conditions for Charge +X:
1) Takes a Move Action
2) Moves at least 1 Zone
The Blue Gremlin can use it's teleport ability and still satisfy both of these conditions (unlike other similar creatures), so what would be the issue?
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Thanks good to know. i guess ill just have to use bear strength and not have pierce +2 =/
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Teleport by itself does not, but as written the Blue Gremlin is actually taking a normal move action while using it's teleport ability. Therefore, it would qualify for the charge bonus. There's nothing in the thread that you linked to that shows otherwise.
Conditions for Charge +X:
1) Takes a Move Action
2) Moves at least 1 Zone
The Blue Gremlin can use it's teleport ability and still satisfy both of these conditions (unlike other similar creatures), so what would be the issue?
At first I thought, "Surely this can't be right?"
It's right.
Teleportation is movement, so Teleportation at least one zone is movement at least one zone, and Blue Gremlin does take a move action.
Charging Gremlins! ;D
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13 mana for charging and piercing Gremlins :D
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The problem with that is Gremlins were meant to be able to teleport out of things such as tanglevines. If it is a move action then they cannot. I believe the original intention was for them to teleport "instead" of moving. But as that is not the wording right now, carry on. Just fair warning that Blue Gremlin's wording could change to reflect the original card design.
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The problem with that is Gremlins were meant to be able to teleport out of things such as tanglevines. If it is a move action then they cannot. I believe the original intention was for them to teleport "instead" of moving. But as that is not the wording right now, carry on. Just fair warning that Blue Gremlin's wording could change to reflect the original card design.
I think this has already been ruled on some where here in the forums.
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Somehow I thought we had our cake and ate it too, wrt gremlin teleportation and movement.
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The problem with that is Gremlins were meant to be able to teleport out of things such as tanglevines. If it is a move action then they cannot. I believe the original intention was for them to teleport "instead" of moving. But as that is not the wording right now, carry on. Just fair warning that Blue Gremlin's wording could change to reflect the original card design.
I think this has already been ruled on some where here in the forums.
The last I remember seeing was that the Blue Gremlin's text was going to remain (for a while, at least). BG has issues related to being hindered in conjunction with its teleport that will go away when the text is changed. In the meanwhile, I guess this is the other side of the coin... BG must take a move action to teleport, so it can get the charge in. Interesting.
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So the original thread can be found here:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.0 (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.0)
For charge:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.15 (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.15)
Once the mana is paid for teleport each move action afterwards (due to the Fast trait) is a teleport so there is no way to gain the Charge trait as a result.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.60 (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.60)
This section of the thread says that we are waiting on an update from the rules team for over a year.
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How sad... i still dont know if blue gremlin can charge or not with teleport.
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I think it's a conflict of Rules as Intended vs Rules as Written, jacksmack. The card does currently state that the teleport counts as a move action, which would allow the Gremlin to gain the Charge bonus but also has the drawback of making it affected by Restrained and Hinderance. This was not meant to be the case though, it would seem, and an errata is possible.
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Charge represents something gaining momentum and using that momentum to leverage extra attack. Teleports are instantaneous, there is no momentum gained.
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Nightcrawler tries to kill the president:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLOMdddg11A
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Nightcrawler uses different rules for teleportation than us. Technically he is briefly in another realm and then he comes back to ours. That is where the smell of sulfur comes from when he BAMF's. So he has always been shown to maintain momentum because he's still moving through the alternate dimension.
BTW, LOVE Nightcrawler.
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Teleports are instantaneous, there is no momentum gained.
Not trying to start a discussion on physics, but wouldn't this imply that no momentum is lost either (i.e. no change in velocity)? Thus, if the Gremlin has to propel himself before initiating the teleport (i.e. requiring him to use his move action) wouldn't he maintain that momentum after the teleport? Then charge, hinderance, and restrained would all make thematic sense for affecting him.
Kind of playing devil's advocate with this a little. I think making it where those things do not affect the Gremlin is a good idea, but I don't think such a change is necessary to keep the rules consistent. Just a good change for the Gremlin specifically.
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Teleports are instantaneous, there is no momentum gained.
Not trying to start a discussion on physics, but wouldn't this imply that no momentum is lost either (i.e. no change in velocity)? Thus, if the Gremlin has to propel himself before initiating the teleport (i.e. requiring him to use his move action) wouldn't he maintain that momentum after the teleport? Then charge, hinderance, and restrained would all make thematic sense for affecting him.
Kind of playing devil's advocate with this a little. I think making it where those things do not affect the Gremlin is a good idea, but I don't think such a change is necessary to keep the rules consistent. Just a good change for the Gremlin specifically.
I love discussing fantasy physics. Earlier this week I had a friend asking if the Venom Symbiote could take over Godzilla. That was a fun discussion.
I see what you're saying, but I'd say that the Gremlin doesn't "get up to speed" before he teleports. But very good points regardless.
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Godzilla-Venom?!?! This thought is going to preoccupy the rest of my weekend now.
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End Result was two-fold. Godzilla is really loud and venom is weak to sonic attacks, and Godzilla has atomic fire which would burn him and that is his other weakness. If somehow Venom won, then they'd call Mothura to fight Godzilla and his sonic attack would disbond the symbiote. :)
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For charge:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.15 (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=2137.15)
Once the mana is paid for teleport each move action afterwards (due to the Fast trait) is a teleport so there is no way to gain the Charge trait as a result.
I don't see that stated anywhere in The Dude's post that you reference. He mentions specific situations when the Blue Gremlin can not charge, with which I agree. In fact, to the contrary of what you are implying, he states that "this is still considered a move action" and again in the same post he says "it is still a move action" thus confirming that he may qualify for a Charge bonus.
In general, if the Gremlin chooses to take a move action, and if mana is paid, then the Gremlin's move action is used to teleport. Since he takes a move action, and ends up in a different zone as a result, he qualifies for a Charge bonus (if he has gained that trait, such as through having Lion Savagery as was mentioned by the OP).
The specific reason that Charge was not permitted in The Dude's post was that the Blue Gremlin either was Crippled or was Restrained by a Tanglevine.
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For reference:
When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.
"each move action is a Teleport to the next zone." hence no Charge.....
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For reference:
When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.
"each move action is a Teleport to the next zone." hence no Charge.....
Right but like stated it gains Fast if you pay the mana, so if you teleport and then run you still get the charge?
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For reference:
When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.
"each move action is a Teleport to the next zone." hence no Charge.....
Right but like stated it gains Fast if you pay the mana, so if you teleport and then run you still get the charge?
The Fast trait means that it gets to take 2 move actions and still perform a Quick Action afterwards. If you pay the mana both actions are now Teleport which is the distinction. You can't say I Teleport from Zone A to Zone B and then Move from Zone B to Zone C, both of these moves would be done via Teleportation. This is the reason that you loose the ability to Charge.
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Ok! So I just went back and re-read what I wrote in those threads the last time this came up, and refreshed my understanding of these rules.
So! As the rules and card are currently written, Blue Gremlin Teleports as a move action.
This means that it fulfills the Charge +X requirements because:
1. It takes its move action.
2. It moves, because Teleportation is included in the category of "movement" which includes taking normal move actions, teleportation, and push effects.
Consider, for example, the FAQ section on Traps:
Traps: A creature only “enters” a zone if it moves there (either uses a move action or is Pushed or Teleported). Being Summoned or otherwise put into play in that zone does not count as “entering” the zone and will not trigger a trap.
Or the definition of Teleport in the rules:
Teleporting is an effect that moves a creature directly from one zone to another.
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BUT!
The last time this came up, Alex Mont said,
The next rules update will change some of the terminology about movement related actions, specifically to clarify this type of situation.
The way we are planning to do it is that Blue Gremlin's teleport ability is not actually a move action; it is something you do "instead of a move action". This means that it counts as a move action for the purposes of what actions you can do in a round, but does not count as a move action for purposes of Suppression Orb, Restrained, etc.
Similarly, the use of the "Climbing" trait counts as a full action for purposes of what actions you can do in a round, but also counts as a move action for purposes of Suppression Orb, Restrained etc. (We don't want it so you can climb while Restrained!)
If and when that change happens, Blue Gremlin won't be able to get the charge bonus by teleporting, because instead of taking a move action, the Gremlin will teleport "instead of taking a move action." Since the Gremlin doesn't take a move action, it can't get the charge bonus.
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Thanks ringkichard: This is exactly what I was trying to say back on reply #12.
Yes, BG teleports. It (right now, before any rules change) does not matter if the movement happens as a result of his teleporting, because the BG (right now) teleports as part of his move action. All that is needed is a change of location and taking a move action. It might not make Fantasy Physics sense... but that is the way the rules are written.
On the other hand, there are odd interactions on being hindered in the first zone to which the BG teleports (right now). This difficulty will go away when (presumably) the rules change.