Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: GeorgeFalcon on August 21, 2014, 04:34:04 PM
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okay so here I am again asking about a different combo... and from what the cards say i believe it works but i am not sure of the order let alone if for sure it works, but can i use both Battle Fury and Whirling Strike on the same creature and if so what is the order?
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Yes, you may. It would work out the same as if you did Battle Fury on a creature that was using it's own Sweeping Attack. I would finish the sweeping attack before doing the Battle Fury attack, as I think that is the easiest way to handle things, but I can not find a specific ruling right now that says that is the proper way to handle it. I believe that since they both occur at the end of the combat sequence that you could choose the order to do them in.
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Yes, you may. It would work out the same as if you did Battle Fury on a creature that was using it's own Sweeping Attack. I would finish the sweeping attack before doing the Battle Fury attack, as I think that is the easiest way to handle things, but I can not find a specific ruling right now that says that is the proper way to handle it. I believe that since they both occur at the end of the combat sequence that you could choose the order to do them in.
Thank You Zuberi. i understand it is a costly combo, but if you need to do some crowd control in a populated zone it could be good.
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As a corollary, let's assume that you cast both Whirling Strike and Battle Fury on a Creature that hasn't yet been activated. Also assume that, when the Creature is activated, there are four targets available to receive that Creature's melee attacks.
Would you be able to attack three different targets (using the Whirling Strike) and then decide which target to hit a second time (or whether to attack a fourth object)?
I ask because of the text under Whirling Strike:
"If an attack with additional strikes (such as a “Doublestrike” or “Triplestrike” attack) is made using Whirling Strike, the additional strikes will only be applied to the first target; the subsequent targets will only receive one strike each."
In other words, does the effect of the Battle Fury make the first attack an attack with an "additional strike"?
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The short answer is that yes you can cast both spells and you get 4 attacks, three of which must be on separate creatures.
The long answer is that I thought I knew the precise answer to this question, but when I researched it I couldn't support my conclusion because there's some ambiguity in the rules.
The current wording of [mwcard=MW1I02]Battle Fury[/mwcard] is
"The next time this round that target creature makes a melee attack, if that attack is not a Counterstrike, at the end of that attack action it may immediately make another quick action melee attack. This extra attack counts as part of the same attack action. Only one Battle Fury spell may be cast per round on the same creature."
The wording of [mwcard=FWI10]Whirling Strike[/mwcard] is unchanged.
The FAQ says this about Battle Fury
The extra attack can be made against the same or a different legal target.
• If the extra attack is made against a different Defender it is treated like a Sweeping Attack, and starts a new attack sequence (with all of the normal steps, including a damage barrier and counterstrike).
• If the extra [attack] is made against the same defender, it will not trigger an additional Counterstrike or Damage Barrier. If the attacking creature becomes affected by a condition acquired from the counterstrike or damage barrier (such as being stunned or dazed), its extra attack will be affected, and the condition marker will remain on the creature until end of the next round (if it has an “end of action phase” effect, as per rules for conditions acquired from a damage barrier or counterstrike).
Since the extra attack is still part of the same attack action (it occurs during the Attack Ends Step of the original attack action), attack bonuses such as Melee +X do not apply to the extra attack.
If you cast Battle Fury on a creature, and the next melee attack that creature makes is a counterstrike attack, Battle Fury will be wasted. (It will not have its effect on a later melee attack that round.)
The effect “Only one Battle Fury spell may be cast per round on the same creature.” is part of the spell’s effect. Thus, if Battle Fury is countered, this effect will not occur, and you would be able to cast a second Battle Fury on this creature this round.
And the FAQ has this to say about Whirling Strike
The additional targets work in the same manner as the Sweeping trait, except there are 2 additional targets instead of 1 additional target. If an attack with additional strikes (such as a “Doublestrike” or “Triplestrike” attack) is made using Whirling Strike, the additional strikes will only be applied to the first target; the subsequent targets will only receive one strike each.
We need to talk a little bit about the difference between an "attack", "attack sequence" and an "attack action." When you use Whirling Strike or an attack from a creature with the Sweeping trait, you make multiple attacks but only one attack action. The "attack sequence" is the steps of the attack 1-8, in order, and your sweeping attack starts a new attack sequence for each target.
On the other hand, with Battle Fury, while you still make all your attacks as part of the same attack action, you only have one attack sequence; the 2nd attack takes place in the final step (step 8) of the initial attack's attack sequence. Presumably, the extra attack has its own steps 1,2,3,4 and 8 that occur within the first attack's step 8.
So!
The easy case is when you chose to attack 4 separate creatures. That's just 4 sweeping attacks.
The complicated case is, as others have noted, using the Battle Fury to attack the same creature twice.
The rules say the Battle Fury extra attack "occurs during the Attack Ends Step of the original attack action". We have a problem here because the rules seem to be assuming that there will be only one Attack Ends Step per Attack Action. But because we're making multiple attacks (Whirling Attack or Sweeping), we have multiple Attack Ends Steps per attack action.
There's two ways we could resolve this:
1. We could assume that the rules really mean to say that you take the Battle Fury attack at the end of the "original Attack Sequence" instead of "original Attack Action." This would mean that you would have to make the Battle Fury's extra attack immediately after the initial attack, without seeing the results of the two extra sweeping attacks.
2. Or, we could take the rules exactly as they're written. The Rules assume something that isn't true, but taking the rules and the cards exactly as written, you don't make the extra attack from Battle Fury until the end of the Attack Action, so you'd make the Battle Fury attack in the final step 8 of the action, after all the sweeping attacks had dealt damage. This would let you make the three sweeping attacks, and then Battle Fury attack any survivor (or a 4th target).
I have no immediate opinion on which of these two is correct. As a playtester I might have rules advice, but I'd have to think about it more.
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After re-reading the rules, part of the issue seems to be that the term "attack sequence" only ever appears in the Core Rules for Sweeping, but is used in the FAQ constantly.
In fact, as best as I can tell, the terms "attack sequence" and "attack" are equivalent, with the proviso that when we use the word "sequence" we're talking about the steps of the attack, and we understand that one attack can occur within the sequence of another.
For an example of how the words are used interchangeably, the Codex entry for Sweeping says,
Sweeping This attack has a wide sweeping arc. A Sweeping attack is one attack action, which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone. After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone. Note: The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack. If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.
So, after thinking about it a bit more, I'm going to employ my favorite guideline for interpreting rules, "Assume that the rules intend to do something possible."
Attack Actions don't have steps; attacks do. There is no end step of an attack action, only the end steps of the attacks within that action.
The current wording of Battle Fury says, "at the end of that attack action it may immediately make another quick action melee attack." That isn't literally/technically possible, because Attacks have steps, not attack actions, and "the end" is a step (step 8). Similarly, when the FAQ says "[The attack] occurs during the Attack Ends Step of the original attack action," that sentence doesn't actually mean anything. It can only mean, that it occurs during the end step of the original attack sequence, or it means nothing.
Rules aren't written with the intention of meaning nothing, and the rules as intended are the reason we have rules as written, and when the written rules are vague, but the intention is clear, we should follow the intention.
The context for all of this is the nerf to Battle Fury and the significant hoopjumping the rules go through to make sure that creatures only get a single Melee +X bonus. All those sentences makes perfect sense in that context as a reminder that "all of these attacks happen within the same action, so no double dipping the bonus" even if it is confusing in the context of sweeping attacks and Battle Fury.
Because of this, if it ever comes up, I intend to play that the Battle Fury attack must be made at the end of the first attack sequence. This is consistent with the normal rule for the interaction of Sweeping with Double Strike: the Double Strike affects only the first creature attacked.
Now I've written this at 2:30 in the morning, and it may turn out to be gibberish, so if it is, I'll re-post sometime tomorrow evening.
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i havent read the wall of text but:
Battlefury is after you make an attack.
thats means until you havge attacvked with whirlwind you have not made any attack.
Finish WW and then BF can hit a 4th target or an already hit target again.
Similar:
A forcemaster with galvitar who makes a sweeping attack after quickcasting a Battle Fury will also finish up the sweeps before she do the BF attack.
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I sincerely appreciate the work and thought put into your argument, Kich. I had not felt like pouring over the rules when I made my reply to this topic last night. Your arguments are sound and not without merit, however I must respectfully disagree. Although I agree that "attack" and "attack action" are different, I think "attack action" and "attack sequence" are fairly synonymous. The important thing to remember, I think, is that you can have steps within steps within steps.
For example: During the "Additional Strike Step" you have to go through an "Avoid Attack Step", "Roll Dice Step", and "Apply Damage and Effects Step". All of these are occurring within the "Additional Strike Step" of the first attack however rather than starting brand new attack sequences. Similarly, the "Counter Strike Step" goes through all of the steps except for triggering another "Counter Strike Step", but these all occur within the "Counter Strike Step" of the initial triggering Attack.
Thus, we can think of Sweeping, Whirlwind Strike, and Battle Fury as all occurring during Step 8: Attack Ends of the first attack. They each go through the entire set of combat steps themselves (unless Battle Fury hits a previously attacked creature, in which case it skips steps 6 & 7) but these steps all occur within Step 8 of the first attack. You don't actually resolve Step 8: Attack Ends, until the attack action is completely done and over with.
Since they are all occurring at the same time, you get to choose which order you would like to resolve them in.
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Great job GeorgeFalcon! You broke Mage Wars! ;)
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Hey, it was my follow-up question that should get credit :)
One other thing that folks may or may not want to consider, is that a Creature must use a Full Action to benefit from the Whirling Strike. I believe that means that you must use the effect of the Whirling Strike first... as Battle Fury only lets you make a quick action melee attack when it is completed.
So, I think my question may boil down to whether the Battle Fury strike is required to hit the first target of the Whirling Strike (i.e. being equivalent to the text on doublestrike in this case).
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Hey, it was my follow-up question that should get credit :)
I introduced GeorgeFalcon to the game so I like to tease him on it.
Just for you though. "Great job DaveW you helped break Mage Wars!" ;P
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I like doing the whirling strike first, just like a prefer to do the sweeping attacks first with any creature that has sweeping. It seems simpler to me to complete all of those attacks before doing the battle fury attack, and it allows more tactical options and versatility with choosing how you want to apply Battle Fury. However, everything I can see in the rules points to they both happen at the same time, during step 8 of the attack sequence, and therefore you get to choose what order they occur in.
Battle Fury most definitely is not treated like an Additional Strike, however. It very clearly can hit any legal target with the additional quick action attack.
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Although I agree that "attack" and "attack action" are different, I think "attack action" and "attack sequence" are fairly synonymous. The important thing to remember, I think, is that you can have steps within steps within steps.
Sweeping explicitly says, "Sweeping (Attack Trait) - This attack has a wide sweeping arc. A Sweeping attack is one attack action, which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone. After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone."
The rules explicitely say that it's one attack action with two attacks, and after the first attack, a new attack sequence is started. "Attack action" and "attack sequence" are explicitly different because one attack action contains two attack sequences.
For example: During the "Additional Strike Step" you have to go through an "Avoid Attack Step", "Roll Dice Step", and "Apply Damage and Effects Step". All of these are occurring within the "Additional Strike Step" of the first attack however rather than starting brand new attack sequences. Similarly, the "Counter Strike Step" goes through all of the steps except for triggering another "Counter Strike Step", but these all occur within the "Counter Strike Step" of the initial triggering Attack.
Yep. We agree on all of that. One attack can happen entirely within another attack, and it's a normal part of the rules for resolving an attack sequence.
Thus, we can think of Sweeping, Whirlwind Strike, and Battle Fury as all occurring during Step 8: Attack Ends of the first attack. They each go through the entire set of combat steps themselves (unless Battle Fury hits a previously attacked creature, in which case it skips steps 6 & 7) but these steps all occur within Step 8 of the first attack. You don't actually resolve Step 8: Attack Ends, until the attack action is completely done and over with.
Nope, that's not what the rules say. There's nothing in the Codex entry for Sweeping to suggest that the second attack happens inside the first attack. It's clearly spelled out that they're two separate attacks, and that the second one only happens after the first.
Since they are all occurring at the same time, you get to choose which order you would like to resolve them in.
I agree that if they were all occurring at the same time, the order could be chosen. But that's just flatly not the case for Sweeping (or Whirling Strike). The rules clearly state that the second attack happens after the first. An attack has 8 steps, and while the game is in the 8th step, the next attack hasn't occurred yet, because it only happens after.
For Battle Fury, however, you're right that the second attack happens inside the first attack's step 8. Which is why it seems to me like you must take your first attack, then your Battle Fury attack inside that attack, and then after the first attack, take your remaining Sweeping attacks.
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For Battle Fury, however, you're right that the second attack happens inside the first attack's step 8. Which is why it seems to me like you must take your first attack, then your Battle Fury attack inside that attack, and then after the first attack, take your remaining Sweeping attacks.
Since you have to use a Full Action (with a Quick Attack) for the [mwcard=FWI10]Whirling Strike[/mwcard] it has to go first. Now the [mwcard=MW1I02]Battle Fury[/mwcard] says: "The next time this round the target creature makes a melee attack" (I think) makes it the first target attacked with Whirling Strikes the target of the Battle Fury.
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Sweeping explicitly says, "Sweeping (Attack Trait) - This attack has a wide sweeping arc. A Sweeping attack is one attack action, which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone. After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone."
My apologies. Somehow I missed this which does sound like it supports your theory. However, there is controversy over whether the new attack sequence happens after step 8 or during it. Page 28 of the rulebook says "make the additional attacks now" not "make the additional attacks after". For arguments sake though, let's assume you are correct for a moment.
We first run into a problem with whether Battle Fury intends us to use it at the end of the first attack or the end of the entire attack action. You've already made your case for why it would be at the end of the first attack, since attack actions don't have steps if they are a separate beast from attack sequences, and I'm going to agree with that opinion under these circumstances. Thus, at the end of the first attack, you have to choose whether to attack the same target again, or to treat Battle Fury like a Sweeping attack. This would mean you could only hit the first target twice with Battle Fury or hit 4 total targets. You would not be able to use Battle Fury to hit the second or third targets of the Whirling Strike a second time.
This seems very restrictive and counter-intuitive to me. So, while this interpretation is supported by the wording of Sweeping in the codex, I still prefer my interpretation of the rules on page 28 which seem to state that sweeping attacks do occur during step 8, but as soon as step 8 has resolved the action phase ends. Thus allowing extra tactical options while simultaneously simplifying things to "you choose the order."
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When I am feeling better I will look this over if it is still needed :-[
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Given the way Battle Fury is currently worded, we can make a few assumptions.
When you go to perform an attack you begin an Attack Action. This covers any attacks that would be generated during said action.
Each Attack follows an Attack Sequence. The sequence is the mechanical order of things you do during an Attack.
The way this interaction breaks down is:
First you declare your attack by announcing you are using your Full Action to use a Quick Attack (part of Whirling Strike's cost).
You perform all 3 of Whirling Strike's attacks.
After the final attack, the Attack Action attempts to end. Battle Fury then triggers to this event, causing it's attack to occur, backing up to either Step 5 if attacking the same target as the third Whirling Strike, or going back to Step 1 if it's a new target.
You only get the basic quick attack from BF as Whirling Strike is "Once this turn"
While there is no "End of Attack Action" step, there has to be a point where the Attack Action ends. That event is sufficient to trigger Battle Fury.
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I've already stated my opinion on the issue, so I'm going to limit this comment to simply stating that even if Battle Fury is used to attack the same target, it goes back to Step 1. However, it would then skip steps 6 and 7.
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I simply said step 5 because it gets treated as an additional strike, so it would kind of have to go back there to be treated as one. (the computer programmer in me likes things consistent, no matter how odd)
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But Battle Fury is not treated as an additional strike. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. First off, it goes through steps that additional strikes do not (steps 1, 5, and 8 ). Second off, if the attack granted by Battle Fury has no additional strikes, you're saying it essentially doesn't happen. For instance, if a Darkfenne Hydra makes a Triple Bite Attack, and then decides to make a Snapping Bite attack using Battle Fury, if it has to start the Snapping Bite in Step 5 it won't get an extra attack at all.
So, just to sum everything up thus far for the overall argument, we seem to have three positions.
First Option: Attack sequence and attack action are synonymous, meaning that both Battle Fury and Sweeping attacks happen at the same time, during Step 8 of the attack, so that you get to choose the order in which to resolve them. With this option, everything works as written and nothing needs changed or updated.
Second Option: Attack sequence is different from attack action meaning that the wording on Battle Fury makes no sense. It should be erratta'd to indicate that it actually occurs in the end step of an Attack Sequence and therefore would have to be used after the first attack made with Sweeping (or Whirling Strike).
Third Option: Attack sequence is different from attack action meaning that the FAQ on Battle Fury makes no sense. It should be erratta'd to indicate that it actually occurs at the end of an attack action (removing the word "step") and therefore would have to be used after all of the attacks made with Sweeping (or Whirling Strike).
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eh. this is what I get for reading my notes when I'm half awake.
I referred to it as an additional strike as it bypasses damage barrier and counterstrike and is still part of the same attack, so I over simplified things. You probably would still not perform step 1 as your not retargeting; but that's open to interpretation.
The Attack Sequence is steps 1-8. The Attack Action is the over arching action that causes any and all attack sequences to occur.
The Attack Action is what causes +X Melee to only work on the first attack. The current wording on Battle Fury says at the "end of the attack action" indicating that it happens after all the Sweeping strikes.
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An attack "action" is a Creature using a full or quick "action" to make an attack... see page 3 of codex. An attack sequence is the numbered steps through which an attack progresses. They are not exactly the same thing, though you can only have an attack sequence if there is an attack action.
Page 29 under Battle Fury, the Codex says "If the extra attack is made against a different Defender it is treated like a Sweeping Attack, and starts a new attack sequence...." Therefore, each attack made with either Battle Fury or any form of Sweeping (such as Whirling Attack), is a separate attack sequence.
The second paragraph under Sweeping shows that there is one attack action (though two attacks) made by a creature with the Sweeping trait.
Also from Attack Actions on page 3: "... and Sweeping are one attack action, but consist of multiple individual attacks." I understand this as to say that each attack using the Sweeping trait progresses through a separate and complete attack sequence, while only taking a single Full Action Attack. Note that the chart on page 3 shows that there are three separate attack sequences (as step 8 says to "repeat above" which starts with declare attack... you do step out of Step 8 when you go back to Step 1 again by the various notes above.
Since you start a new attack sequence when performing the second attack using Whirling Strike, but are not beginning a new attack action... Whirling Strike should be resolved in full before the Battle Fury attack takes place; the (Full) action is not completed until the final Sweeping-like attack is made.
Battle Fury: "The next time this round the target creature makes a melee attack... at the end of that attack action it may immediately make another quick action melee attack. This extra attack counts as part of the same attack action...."
This means that the Battle Fury starts a new attack sequence within the same Full Attack Action, but this attack is not restricted to a target that has not yet been attacked, like the others in Whirling Strike.
Whirling Strike: "Once this round, if this creature uses a full action to make a quick action melee attack, it may use that attack against up to 3 different target objects in its zone. It attacks each target, one after the other, in the same manner as the Sweeping trait."
So... attack sequence is not the same as attack action, both cards make perfect sense, you must go through the Whirling Strike in its entirety first, and then Battle Fury kicks in at the end in the same attack action.
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I believe attack sequence and attack action are somewhat synonymous because an attack action has to go through one full attack sequence and as soon as that sequence finishes, the action ends. That sequence can include additional steps within it, including entire extra attack sequences, but the initial sequence comprises the whole of the attack action. Thus, an attack sequence isn't necessarily the same thing as an attack action, since you can have a sequence within a sequence and you might be able to have a sequence without an action at all (traps for instance), however an attack action IS the same thing as an attack sequence. It is comprised of one full sequence in it's entirety, ends after the sequence is complete, and can not exist without it.
Although all of Dave's quotes are accurate, the FAQ on Battle Fury also states that it occurs during step 8 of the attack action, not after. Plus page 28 of the rules states that sweeping also occurs during step 8, and that the attack action ends after step 8 resolves. Trying to separate an Attack Action from the steps involved with it causes contradictions within the rules, FAQ, and card text.
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I believe attack sequence and attack action are somewhat synonymous because an attack action has to go through one full attack sequence and as soon as that sequence finishes, the action ends.
This (semantically) doesn't make sense to me. The creature's "action" marker was flipped to indicate that it was taking the full "action" to attack, and that Creature has not yet finished its action when the first attack has been completed. No other Creature has started its action, nor may a Mage use its quick cast while these additional attacks are taking place.
Minor point: An attack action does not need to go through a "full" attack sequence as it might be stopped from reaching the dice and damage steps due to a successful defense, etc... but that really doesn't matter in this case.
I guess we do need some kind of Shad0wy answer here....
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The additional attacks happen within the steps of the initial attack. Just like the attacks granted by Double Strike and Triple Strike occur curing step 5, Sweeping and Battle Fury occur during step 8.
And if an attack is successfully avoided, it still goes through the full attack sequence. You wouldn't roll dice, but you would still perform additional strikes, which might cause damage barrier to still apply, you would also still check for counterstrikes even though the triggering attack was avoided, and you would have to finish with step 8.
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I believe attack sequence and attack action are somewhat synonymous because an attack action has to go through one full attack sequence and as soon as that sequence finishes, the action ends.
This (semantically) doesn't make sense to me. The creature's "action" marker was flipped to indicate that it was taking the full "action" to attack, and that Creature has not yet finished its action when the first attack has been completed. No other Creature has started its action, nor may a Mage use its quick cast while these additional attacks are taking place.
Minor point: An attack action does not need to go through a "full" attack sequence as it might be stopped from reaching the dice and damage steps due to a successful defense, etc... but that really doesn't matter in this case.
I guess we do need some kind of Shad0wy answer here....
Heat and I have been talking this over for a few days now we just need a response from Bryan. For those that do not know Heat is part of my test group and also on the rules team.
PS: still not 100% better yet.
Hope to get an answer this weekend