Triple strike?

[Shad0w]

When I am feeling better I will look this over if it is still needed

[HeatStryke]

Given the way Battle Fury is currently worded, we can make a few assumptions.

When you go to perform an attack you begin an Attack Action. This covers any attacks that would be generated during said action.

Each Attack follows an Attack Sequence. The sequence is the mechanical order of things you do during an Attack.

The way this interaction breaks down is:

First you declare your attack by announcing you are using your Full Action to use a Quick Attack (part of Whirling Strike's cost).

You perform all 3 of Whirling Strike's attacks.

After the final attack, the Attack Action attempts to end. Battle Fury then triggers to this event, causing it's attack to occur, backing up to either Step 5 if attacking the same target as the third Whirling Strike, or going back to Step 1 if it's a new target.

You only get the basic quick attack from BF as Whirling Strike is "Once this turn"


While there is no "End of Attack Action" step, there has to be a point where the Attack Action ends. That event is sufficient to trigger Battle Fury.

[Zuberi]

I've already stated my opinion on the issue, so I'm going to limit this comment to simply stating that even if Battle Fury is used to attack the same target, it goes back to Step 1. However, it would then skip steps 6 and 7.

[HeatStryke]

I simply said step 5 because it gets treated as an additional strike, so it would kind of have to go back there to be treated as one. (the computer programmer in me likes things consistent, no matter how odd)

[Zuberi]

But Battle Fury is not treated as an additional strike. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. First off, it goes through steps that additional strikes do not (steps 1, 5, and 8 ). Second off, if the attack granted by Battle Fury has no additional strikes, you're saying it essentially doesn't happen. For instance, if a Darkfenne Hydra makes a Triple Bite Attack, and then decides to make a Snapping Bite attack using Battle Fury, if it has to start the Snapping Bite in Step 5 it won't get an extra attack at all.

So, just to sum everything up thus far for the overall argument, we seem to have three positions.

First Option: Attack sequence and attack action are synonymous, meaning that both Battle Fury and Sweeping attacks happen at the same time, during Step 8 of the attack, so that you get to choose the order in which to resolve them. With this option, everything works as written and nothing needs changed or updated.

Second Option: Attack sequence is different from attack action meaning that the wording on Battle Fury makes no sense. It should be erratta'd to indicate that it actually occurs in the end step of an Attack Sequence and therefore would have to be used after the first attack made with Sweeping (or Whirling Strike).

Third Option: Attack sequence is different from attack action meaning that the FAQ on Battle Fury makes no sense. It should be erratta'd to indicate that it actually occurs at the end of an attack action (removing the word "step") and therefore would have to be used after all of the attacks made with Sweeping (or Whirling Strike).

[HeatStryke]

eh. this is what I get for reading my notes when I'm half awake.

I referred to it as an additional strike as it bypasses damage barrier and counterstrike and is still part of the same attack, so I over simplified things. You probably would still not perform step 1 as your not retargeting; but that's open to interpretation.

The Attack Sequence is steps 1-8. The Attack Action is the over arching action that causes any and all attack sequences to occur.

The Attack Action is what causes +X Melee to only work on the first attack. The current wording on Battle Fury says at the "end of the attack action" indicating that it happens after all the Sweeping strikes.

[DaveW]

An attack "action" is a Creature using a full or quick "action" to make an attack... see page 3 of codex. An attack sequence is the numbered steps through which an attack progresses. They are not exactly the same thing, though you can only have an attack sequence if there is an attack action.

Page 29 under Battle Fury, the Codex says "If the extra attack is made against a different Defender it is treated like a Sweeping Attack, and starts a new attack sequence...." Therefore, each attack made with either Battle Fury or any form of Sweeping (such as Whirling Attack), is a separate attack sequence.

The second paragraph under Sweeping shows that there is one attack action (though two attacks) made by a creature with the Sweeping trait.

Also from Attack Actions on page 3: "... and Sweeping are one attack action, but consist of multiple individual attacks." I understand this as to say that each attack using the Sweeping trait progresses through a separate and complete attack sequence, while only taking a single Full Action Attack. Note that the chart on page 3 shows that there are three separate attack sequences (as step 8 says to "repeat above" which starts with declare attack... you do step out of Step 8 when you go back to Step 1 again by the various notes above.

Since you start a new attack sequence when performing the second attack using Whirling Strike, but are not beginning a new attack action... Whirling Strike should be resolved in full before the Battle Fury attack takes place; the (Full) action is not completed until the final Sweeping-like attack is made.

Battle Fury: "The next time this round the target creature makes a melee attack... at the end of that attack action it may immediately make another quick action melee attack. This extra attack counts as part of the same attack action...."

This means that the Battle Fury starts a new attack sequence within the same Full Attack Action, but this attack is not restricted to a target that has not yet been attacked, like the others in Whirling Strike.

Whirling Strike: "Once this round, if this creature uses a full action to make a quick action melee attack, it may use that attack against up to 3 different target objects in its zone. It attacks each target, one after the other, in the same manner as the Sweeping trait."

So... attack sequence is not the same as attack action, both cards make perfect sense, you must go through the Whirling Strike in its entirety first, and then Battle Fury kicks in at the end in the same attack action.

[Zuberi]

I believe attack sequence and attack action are somewhat synonymous because an attack action has to go through one full attack sequence and as soon as that sequence finishes, the action ends. That sequence can include additional steps within it, including entire extra attack sequences, but the initial sequence comprises the whole of the attack action. Thus, an attack sequence isn't necessarily the same thing as an attack action, since you can have a sequence within a sequence and you might be able to have a sequence without an action at all (traps for instance), however an attack action IS the same thing as an attack sequence. It is comprised of one full sequence in it's entirety, ends after the sequence is complete, and can not exist without it.

Although all of Dave's quotes are accurate, the FAQ on Battle Fury also states that it occurs during step 8 of the attack action, not after. Plus page 28 of the rules states that sweeping also occurs during step 8, and that the attack action ends after step 8 resolves. Trying to separate an Attack Action from the steps involved with it causes contradictions within the rules, FAQ, and card text.

[DaveW]

I believe attack sequence and attack action are somewhat synonymous because an attack action has to go through one full attack sequence and as soon as that sequence finishes, the action ends.

This (semantically) doesn't make sense to me. The creature's "action" marker was flipped to indicate that it was taking the full "action" to attack, and that Creature has not yet finished its action when the first attack has been completed. No other Creature has started its action, nor may a Mage use its quick cast while these additional attacks are taking place.

Minor point: An attack action does not need to go through a "full" attack sequence as it might be stopped from reaching the dice and damage steps due to a successful defense, etc... but that really doesn't matter in this case.

I guess we do need some kind of Shad0wy answer here....

[Zuberi]

The additional attacks happen within the steps of the initial attack. Just like the attacks granted by Double Strike and Triple Strike occur curing step 5, Sweeping and Battle Fury occur during step 8.

And if an attack is successfully avoided, it still goes through the full attack sequence. You wouldn't roll dice, but you would still perform additional strikes, which might cause damage barrier to still apply, you would also still check for counterstrikes even though the triggering attack was avoided, and you would have to finish with step 8.

[Shad0w]

I believe attack sequence and attack action are somewhat synonymous because an attack action has to go through one full attack sequence and as soon as that sequence finishes, the action ends.

This (semantically) doesn't make sense to me. The creature's "action" marker was flipped to indicate that it was taking the full "action" to attack, and that Creature has not yet finished its action when the first attack has been completed. No other Creature has started its action, nor may a Mage use its quick cast while these additional attacks are taking place.

Minor point: An attack action does not need to go through a "full" attack sequence as it might be stopped from reaching the dice and damage steps due to a successful defense, etc... but that really doesn't matter in this case.

I guess we do need some kind of Shad0wy answer here....

Heat and I have been talking this over for a few days now we just need a response from Bryan. For those that do not know Heat is part of my test group and also on the rules team.


PS: still not 100% better yet.
Hope to get an answer this weekend