Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: Sailor Vulcan on January 18, 2014, 02:40:48 AM
-
Mage Wars deck (built using OCTGN deckbuilder) 1/18/2014 12:00:00 AM
Spellbook points: 120 used of 120 allowed
1 Forcemaster
--- Conjuration ---
2 Temple of the Dawnbreaker
1 Hand of Bim-Shalla
--- Creature ---
2 Guardian Angel
1 Knight of Westlock
--- Enchantment ---
2 Forcefield
2 Force Orb
2 Force Sword
2 Mongoose Agility
1 Bear Strength
3 Nullify
1 Force Hold
1 Decoy
--- Equipment ---
2 Dancing Scimitar
1 Galvitar, Force Blade
1 Defense Ring
1 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Force Ring
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Deflection Bracers
1 Eagleclaw Boots
--- Incantation ---
2 Dispel
1 Seeking Dispel
2 Dissolve
3 Force Push
2 Teleport
1 Battle Fury
2 Purify
1 Repulse
1 Force Wave
--- Attack ---
2 Acid Ball
1 Invisible Fist
1 Force Hammer
The basic idea of this build is defenses. Defenses defenses defenses. I mean, how much do you need armor when you can just avoid attacks altogther?
Here's the basic procedure:
1. Summon and then teleport your Knight of Westlock over to the enemy mage to cause a disruption to give yourself more time to set up.
2. When you're setting up, first thing you want to do is cast a force ring and a Temple of the Dawnbreaker. After that, start summoning your guards and casting nullifies and defensive enchantments on yourself on an as needed basis.
3. Eventually, cast your second Temple of the Dawnbreaker, as well as your Dancing Scimitar and your Galvitar.
4. Start attacking the enemy mage.
I designed this spellbook over a month ago, and then Murphy gave me significant help to upgrade it. Rather, he did most of the work of the upgrading and walked me through it. If you're reading this Murphy, thanks a bunch!
Also, attached to this post is a spreadsheet that charts the probability that your attack will hit me in different situations.
What do you think?
-
Needs more cowbe- I mean Wardstone.
-
Hmm. I think I see what you mean. I only have two mongoose agilities, and those are vital cards. If my opponent goes after them and then sicks a bunch of creatures on me, then I could be in for a world of hurt. I made some more edits to make room for the enchanter's wardstones and will try to test it again today.
-
I think it looks good. I might add a second armor since the first could easily be dissolved and some attacks will get through your guards + defenses.
-
After some careful consideration and some more testing, I have upgraded this spellbook again so i have room for wardstones. Also, i figured that since i have acid balls and force pushes, i might as well include a wall of thorns as another source of damage.
Mage Wars deck (built using OCTGN deckbuilder) 1/18/2014 12:00:00 AM
Spellbook points: 120 used of 120 allowed
1 Forcemaster
--- Conjuration ---
2 Temple of the Dawnbreaker
1 Hand of Bim-Shalla
2 Enchanter's Wardstone
1 Wall of Thorns
--- Creature ---
2 Guardian Angel
1 Knight of Westlock
--- Enchantment ---
2 Forcefield
2 Force Orb
2 Force Sword
2 Mongoose Agility
1 Bear Strength
3 Nullify
1 Force Hold
1 Decoy
--- Equipment ---
2 Dancing Scimitar
1 Galvitar, Force Blade
1 Defense Ring
1 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Force Ring
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Deflection Bracers
1 Eagleclaw Boots
--- Incantation ---
2 Dispel
1 Seeking Dispel
2 Dissolve
2 Force Push
1 Teleport
1 Battle Fury
2 Purify
1 Repulse
1 Force Wave
--- Attack ---
2 Acid Ball
1 Force Hammer
Also, while more armor could help, i'm not sure how necessary it is. while some attacks can still get through, it gets increasingly less likely over time. I think people underestimate defenses because they're luck-based. However, all attacks in this game are luckbased, since all damage is decided by die rolling. And with two Temples of the Dawnbreaker and a Defense Ring, the chances of an attack targeting me when i use a defense is really low. Furthermore, with Temple of the Dawnbreaker you can reroll failed defenses AND attack rolls you don't like that target friendly creatures. When your armor is pierced, you don't get to reroll the piercing effect; it's already too late. Furthermore, Defenses can't be corroded. That's why I have a second Dancing Scimitar instead of a second Dragonscale Hauberk. Don't forget to check out my spreadsheet! I put some good work into those calculations.
-
Your mileage will vary, but I'd still take the second armor over the second wardstone. I frequently run a solo FM with a temple/hand set up and in my experience it's not the probabilities on the individual attacks that get you, it's the number of attacks coming your way - especially if they all come the same round so you don't have time to reset your temples. I find that an opponent with two or three creatures out (let's say even four creatures out in your case since you've got some blockers to run interference for you) can regularly get past my defenses, at which point I appreciate the armor.
-
Kinda related question - do the wardstones' effects stack, or only one works at a time?
-
They stack.
-
Falcon Precision, Precise Strike and Unavoidable attack spells void all your defenses
-
Yeah, my fm has a special dispel reserved just for falcon precision.
-
Yeah, my fm has a special dispel reserved just for falcon precision.
What happens when the Morningstar or other weapons with the Unavoidable traits come out? I ran the Vorpal Blade and Morningstar against Charmyna in several games to help against some of his creatures with Defenses. This was also before he went to the GrizWiz (Battleforge), one of my guess's was his deck evolved into the Armor stacking beastie it became as a result. I am sure he played many other players and that helped evolve that certain strategy too.
-
The unavoidable trait causes attacks to completely bypass defenses. Just as there are attacks that have the piercing + x trait or the critical damage trait for completely bypassing armor. I fail to see how this makes defenses inferior to armor though. Also keep in mind that all zone attacks are unavoidable. This is at least partially offset by the fact that zone attacks usually cost more, either in actions, mana or spellbook points. For Brogan I have guards and Force hold. For unavoidable non-zone attack spells, I have guards with intercept, and I'm going to also try adding the extra armor like webcatcher suggested, and replace the Regrowth Belt with a Colossus Belt. Not to mention that I can reroll such attacks against me with the Temples of the Dawnbreaker. As for Precise Strike, there's admittedly not much I can do to directly counter it. I would have to avoid a situation where the enemy could stand to benefit that much from using Precise Strike. I could also nullify the creature that is going to be targeted by Precise Strike if it really seems necessary, although most of the time my nullifies will go on me. I can also nullify an enemy creature to keep the opponent from enchanting them.
I'm thinking I'll also get rid of one of my purifies to include another dispel. I also just took out the second Enchanter's Wardstone. I'll see how it goes in the next test and post here again.
-
replace the Regrowth Belt with a Colossus Belt
I agree.
-
Falcon Precision, Precise Strike and Unavoidable attack spells void all your defenses
Why I would recommend switching out the Knight of Westlock for either Dwarf Panzergarde or Gargoyle Sentry. I would probably go Panzer but your mileage may vary
-
Falcon Precision, Precise Strike and Unavoidable attack spells void all your defenses
Why I would recommend switching out the Knight of Westlock for either Dwarf Panzergarde or Gargoyle Sentry. I would probably go Panzer but your mileage may vary
I think the point of the Knight is the high damage it deals, with the decent armour and defense just to make it a difficult target to kill. Neither the Dwarf nor the Sentry can do that, their defensive abilities coming from guarding. Also he has two interceptors already.
-
I generally find non-flyers with less than 11-12 hp too easy to kill - or too hard keeping alive.
Armor or not. Sooner or later a crit spike will occure and they are down to less than half HP.
Even a 3 dice creature rolls 4+ crits on a regular basis.
So either i accept they have a limited time on the board - or i summon something else.
The problem with running a FM creature strategy, is that its obvious to the opponent how he can beat you.
Kill those creatures and they will not be replaced simply because of the extreme spellbook cost.
I would like to see your spellbook in action - but looking at it tells me that its not presenting any threat or domination to force any strategy through.
I think the opponent can pretty much do what he wants.
I think any turtle build will just overwhelm this build in strength and numbers in round 7-8 while you build up your castle.
-
On the contrary, I think concentrating on the creatures is exactly what the OP wants his opponent to do. Most Forcemaster builds don't stop to build up their castles, they build while applying heavy pressure via non-spell attacks. An FM with basic equipment and no buffs (say just Galvitar and dancing scimitar) can put out 7-11 dice of damage per round while still preserving her QC for development. That damage is almost certainly going to be directed at the enemy mage. If the enemy mage wants to spend those same rounds focusing on the FM's creatures, by the time they're dead it's likely to be too late.
-
If the enemy mage wants to spend those same rounds focusing on the FM's creatures, by the time they're dead it's likely to be too late.
agree... so why put in defensive creatures?
Offensive creatures can guard as well when needed.
Also spending 3 rounds summoning creatures is a long time. Now add another 2 rounds to get from corner to enemy corner and its suddenly round 5.
-
That might work. It's hard to find a 13 point creature that combines survivability and damage better than the KoW. Iron golem maybe but you couldn't push it.
-
That might work. It's hard to find a 13 point creature that combines survivability and damage better than the KoW. Iron golem maybe but you couldn't push it.
KoW is imo a heavy hitter especially the cost considered.... im talking about all the intercept creatures.
Those that kinda supports the definition of the "Defense Force" topic.
-
That might work. It's hard to find a 13 point creature that combines survivability and damage better than the KoW. Iron golem maybe but you couldn't push it.
[mwcard=MW1C20] Highland Unicorn[/mwcard]
-
Except if my opponent doesn't move, Highland Unicorn won't get Charge +2. And the Regenerate 1 is only helpful if I have more creatures sharing its zone. Knight of Westlock's attack is 5 dice even without having to move, and While the Unicorn has regenerate 2, knight of westlock has 1 more armor and 1 more health than Unicorn. I suppose it could be a useful guard for my mage to heal a bit of damage, but I don't think that's worth replacing the Knight with it. Now, if I was playing in a lightning heavy metagame, then I probably would choose unicorn over knight.
-
As a guard [mwcard=MW1C22] Knight of Westlock[/mwcard] is much better. I like regen a lot especially if someone is focusing on my main dealer of damage.
-
I have had two forcefields dispelled regularly, and what about battleforge?
-
Falcon Precision, Precise Strike and Unavoidable attack spells void all your defenses
Is forcefield bypassed by unavoidable? I thought not.
-
You're using the term "defense" differently. Falcon Precision, Precise Strike, and Unavoidable negate the game mechanic "defense". However, they don't bypass all methods of defending oneself (ie, defenses).
-
According to the codex, the definition of an unavoidable attack is one that cannot be avoided with defenses.
I just looked at Forcefield again, and you are right Somaddict. Nowhere does it say that using a Forcefield token is a defense. It just says that it cancels the attack BEFORE the avoid attacks step. Defenses occur DURING the avoid attack step. I stand corrected.
-
The only ways I know of getting around forcefield are damage barriers and reverse attack. Most opponents will have to either dispel it (bring two so you can recast) or beat through it with quantity of attacks.
-
The only ways I know of getting around forcefield are damage barriers and reverse attack. Most opponents will have to either dispel it (bring two so you can recast) or beat through it with quantity of attacks.
Force Push through a Wall of Thorns works quite nicely.
-
That's why eagle claw boots are in style for forcemasters. FF is a hard nut to crack. The obvious way is to summon more creatures, but then there's the obelisk.
-
That's why eagle claw boots are in style for forcemasters. FF is a hard nut to crack. The obvious way is to summon more creatures, but then there's the obelisk.
Mana Prism can help a bit with that.
-
Or you could use mana siphon to even the score (and it's incorporeal so it's harder for your opponent to get rid of).
-
Still just a Dissolve and then the combo. Start it at the end of your non-initiative phase during the Final Quick Cast Phase. Then run the combo new action phase.
-
That is another option, though it's more expensive to cast or put into your spellbook. Also the Forcemaster and the Wizard, the two mages more likely to include Mordok's Obelisk/Suppression Orb both have easy ways of Ethereal damage (Galvitar, Mind-school attacks/Arcane Zap, Jet Stream [either hard-cast or from a Tower], etc). Also the 0-2 range for the Syphon might force you to put it in a bad position, though that is a situational problem.
The other thing is that the Mana Syphon only reduces their channeling by 2, while the Orb or Obelisk could conceivably cost you much more than that per turn.
The main benefit of the Prism in my opinion (and I don't play Swarm books, so I might be completely off-base here), is that starting on the second round the Orb/Obelisk is in play it effectively negates two of the Upkeep/movement costs while storing the rest of the mana that would be lost. So after you take out the Orb/Obelisk, you get all your mana back. How worthwhile that would be for a creature-heavy book I cannot say, since in order for the mana to pay off it would need to be in play long enough to collect 7 mana...and when you add in the action to cast it you'd probably want it to collect 10-12+ mana. I suppose if you had 3-5 creatures and just wanted to kill the enemy mage and not worry about the conjurations it would make sense...
-
I run three forcefields. If the opponent doesn't have enough creatures, it is the most important thing to get rid of as soon as it hits the table. Charm runs 5 or 6 dispels, for example.
-
I run two forcefields, but I find that the second one doesn't often get dispelled. Most people in my group only carry two dispels, and against everyone except the necromancer (no earth wizards in the group) I can usually use an early game mind control to pull one of them.
-
I run two forcefields, but I find that the second one doesn't often get dispelled. Most people in my group only carry two dispels, and against everyone except the necromancer (no earth wizards in the group) I can usually use an early game mind control to pull one of them.
Which is probably the very best reason to run Mind Control, to flush out dispels
-
I really just like to tink the Forcefield down to 0 then the choice is pay for Upkeep or let it go....3 FF in would help in the regards.
-
There is so much immune to psychic now. I hate to blow up Charm's ego, but he's the best player I've faced, and he purposely runs mostly psychic immune stuff. Necro is out. Any Voltron build is out. FM mirror match is out. I run two Mind Control either way. Hopefully FM will get some love in the near future. At one point I thought she was OP, and now the opposite is true, imo.
Another thing to think about: How does this book fair against a pure mirror match?
-
A wiz or necro will definitely make things hairier for the FM. I find that a force crush on a mage will also draw a dispel.
-
I think that a Jelly or two might cause some trouble in a FM book.
-
In my FM books I've completely dropped Mind Control, and I'll probably never add it again. I use a couple of Charms instead; much cheaper to cast or include in a book.
I find Force Crush/Force Hold/Tanglevine to be a better choice anyway.
-
Mage Wars deck (built using OCTGN deckbuilder) 2/5/2014 12:00:00 AM
Spellbook points: 120 used of 120 allowed
1 Forcemaster
--- Conjuration ---
2 Temple of the Dawnbreaker
1 Hand of Bim-Shalla
1 Enchanter's Wardstone
1 Wall of Thorns
--- Creature ---
1 Guardian Angel
1 Knight of Westlock
--- Enchantment ---
2 Forcefield
2 Force Orb
2 Force Sword
2 Mongoose Agility
1 Bear Strength
4 Nullify
1 Force Hold
1 Decoy
3 Jinx
--- Equipment ---
2 Dancing Scimitar
1 Galvitar, Force Blade
1 Defense Ring
2 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Force Ring
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Deflection Bracers
1 Eagleclaw Boots
1 Colossus Belt
--- Incantation ---
3 Dispel
1 Seeking Dispel
2 Dissolve
2 Force Push
1 Teleport
1 Battle Fury
1 Purify
2 Repulse
1 Force Wave
--- Attack ---
2 Acid Ball
1 Force Hammer
After some more testing, this is the latest updated version of Defensive Force. What do you think?
-
If you are going to put Jinx in, I would only run one or two. You are only trading one of your quick actions for theirs, and at a cost of 3 mana to you as well, so you want to make sure that quick spell you prevent is something that's going to cost them THAT turn that they use it. I think in our game, it could have stopped me on certain turns from escaping, or putting that curse on you, but it still would have put the spell back in my book, and refunded the mana I spent on it, which is weird for a "counter spell".
Jinx is good, but for it to be awesome, you have to be a bit of a mind reader. I like to jinx the same turn as I play mage wand or some good equip because you can pretty much be certain that a dissolve is coming your way. Jinx either stops that from happening, or forces them to play two spells to your one. Just an example of "when to play Jinx" from a noob like myself. I'm sure others will tell you how bad or good Jinx ACTUALLY is, but it has its perks to be sure.
Just my experience with it. I usually only use them with my Wizard books, but that's only because its not a novice spell, and I feel like putting more than 2 in any other book is a waste of spell points. Even as a FM, I feel like its not a bad card, but there are probably better options. I have never played a FM, so I may or may not have the slightest idea of what I'm talking about. Take that as you will.