Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: DeckBuilder on September 21, 2013, 08:48:50 PM
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That earth wizard build sounds really similar to something I'm working on. We should compare notes! And yes, my secret suspicion is that its the best book in the game at the moment, if the player can play tight enough to complete all the games in time and on plan.
Here is my Earth Wizard Kill Zone book. Although there is superficial similarity to Charmyna's “fabled Watergate" book (as all wizards use essentially the same tools with our current nascent pool), this book is played quite differently. It is easy to play for a wizard spell book thus is ideal for newer players (Watergate is subtler and requires far more patience). You can win without ever leaving your start corner zone!
14 EQUIPMENT (22)
1 Arcane Ring (1)
1 Enchanter's Ring (1)
1 Moonglow Amulet (1)
1 Dragonscale Hauberk (2)
1 Storm Drake Hide (2)
2 Elemental Cloak (2)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Eagleclaw Boots (2)
3 Mage Wand (6)
1 Elemental Wand (2)
1 Regrowth Belt (2)
8 CONJURATIONS (16)
1 Battle Forge (4)
2 Mana Crystal (2)
1 Wizard's Tower (2)
2 Wall of Stone (4)
1 Wall of Thorns (2)
1 Fog Bank (2)
7 CREATURES (24)
4 Iron Golem (12)
2 Darkfenne Hydra [8]
1 Gorgon Archer (4)
18 ENCHANTMENTS (25)
3 Harmonize (3)
1 Rhino Hide (2)
2 Hawkeye (4)
2 Cheetah Speed (4)
4 Nullify (4)
2 Enchantment Transfusion (2)
2 Jinx (2)
1 Spiked Pit (3)
1 Teleport Trap (1)
15 INCANTATIONS (25)
4 Dispel (4)
1 Purge Magic (3)
2 Seeking Dispel (2)
4 Dissolve [8]
3 Teleport (6)
1 Force Push (2)
4 ATTACKS [8]
2 Hurl Boulder (4)
1 Jet Stream (2)
1 Surging Wave (2)
Your opening differs by opposing mage and who has initiative, what you know about his book and his style of play. However, I try to follow a game plan, obviously diverted when an opportunity arises (e.g. to Wall of Thorns / Force Push / Jet Stream with Wizard’s Tower) or if the opponent threatens to disrupt my plans (e.g. Nullify and Teleport Wand in case Teleported out). You must preempt a "check" on your king.
Turn 1: build Battle Forge where you start and an adjacent Mana Crystal
Turn 2: forge Arcane Ring for other adjacent Mana Crystal and an Iron Golem in your starting corner kill zone
Ok, so you have very early on revealed your elemental specialty but you often need a guard on turn 3, especially if you started with initiative.
After that, a game is fuzzy (turn 3 Forge is usually Enchanter's Ring) but once you are at 14 Channelling (2 Crystals, Medallion, Harmonize) as early as turn 4 (reveal Harmonize on self just before Channelling to claim Arcane Ring bonus), you can summon a Golem each turn (it guards henceforth) and also cast the trap set-up enchantments (Transfusion, Nullify, Jinx) on the same healthiest Golem for cost 13+1.
As early as Turn 7, you could set the trap off: Spiked Pit in corner zone and Teleport the opponent’s mage onto it then as late as possible Transfuse Jinx Nullify onto him to hit him with 4 Iron Golems. Next turn, you Early QC 2 Stone Walls to enclose him before he escapes.
But the Turn 8 win is very rare. Often it is better to get 2 sets of stacked hidden enchantments ready. With 14 Channelling and 2 Hawkeyes (you and Gorgon) and a Harmonized Wizard’s Tower, you can cast 2x Hurl Boulders and a Gorgon's arrow for 8+7+5 dice focused attack each turn. This forces the opponent to pause to amass troops out of range, which plays into your game plan due to superior Channelling and 7 top class elites.
The 3 Teleport Wands can be used aggressively to move your Hydra about for 3x3 dice attacks then return them to safety before they are killed to heal back up. But the style of this book is not board control but simple assassination: create a kill zone that no enemy dare enter without a big assault that starts beyond range 2 then trap the enemy mage in that kill zone
That just leaves a short explanation of cards. You have a toolbox of 2 breastplates, 2 cloaks, gloves, and Rhino Hide to fully leverage your Voltaric Shield when needed. With the boots on, opponent’s Push effects (to Wall Bash, the danger with corner) cannot effect you or your Golems and it also lets you cross your Stone Walls (as full action). The tempo advantage you get with a Battle Forge (often safe in your kill zone to Harmonize) is well known. Teleport and Hurl Boulder are the default Wand binds.
The very existence of the Thorns trick (props to Charmyna) in your book forces opponents to play in a certain way to avoid cheap damage but beware of doing this too early. You want to do damage spikes in short periods of time (including Hurl Boulders) when approaching the end game as opponent will retreat to regenerate an early spike.
Fog Bank is there just for problematic range 3 Akiro’s Hammer (you venture out 1 to Teleport a range 3 Sniper into your kill zone). It's also great (with Wall of Thorns) for other match ups to break LOS to their Battle Forge or from multiple ranged threats (Gorgon Archer obviously get Teleported in and assassinated). Fog Bank is there to cheaply disrupt line of sight in opponent plans that you predict, a finesse card.
Teleport Trap is there to extend your Teleport lure into your kill zone if the opposing mage stays in his start corner. It is also there for if the opponent Climbs out of your Stone Wall zone after Escaping Stuck in 1 round of being battered, donning Eagleclaw Boots; you (outside) Dissolve his Boots, cast Teleport Trap on an empty zone within 2 of the walled-in kill zone and Teleport opponent onto it as Teleport Trap, like Divine Intervention, requires no line of sight, moving him back into the kill zone.
Harmonize all 3 mana sources, Hawkeye for yourself (don't forget ethereal Zap) and your Gorgon, Cheetah Speed for sustained attacks by your Teleported Hydras (until Dispelled), all of them leveraging your Ring(s) for mana advantage.
Purge Magic (note can be Nullified unlike Dispel) gives you momentum via action (and often mana) advantage, forcing your opponent to avoid stacked enchantment synergies (no more Bear Strength + Vampirism + hidden Retaliate), and counters curse Warlock Transfusing all his Enchanter Ring hidden curses onto you as a free action. As an Earth Wizard should leverage excellent Hurl Boulder via Elemental Wand, this build is more brutal and less subtle to Watergate’s Dispel Wand, one card I had previously dismissed but now appreciate its value. Nonliving Golems are immune to many negative enchantments and you can use Forge to free action swap Wand if low on Dispels.
Finally you have a small toolbox of range 2 attack spells (nothing that a cloak resists), 2 utility and 2 for damage spikes (and very useful Slam). An opponent’s aggressive opening of move 2 and Near Centre Battle Forge will lead to your Wizard’s Tower hosing it down with Surging Wave (also used on Blue Gremlins). Use Jet Stream on Flyers and threats best pushed away to prolong approach (and Thorns).
A variant of this build (and a prior interation) could be:
-2 Darkfenne Hydra, -1 Gorgon Archer, -2 Cheetah Speed, -1 Hawkeye
+1 Idol of Pestilence, +1 Deathlock, +1 Suppression Orb, +1 Mordok's Obelisk, +1 Wizard's Tower, +1 Hurl Boulder
The problem with this build was guarding the control conjurations (which you bring out appropriate to each match-up) which actually serve as lures. With emergence of Swarm in the coming expansion, this Control version may be the future. However, currently, the simplicity and brutality of the above build is better. I've also experimented with Force Hold and Turn to Stone but, because this book does not have many "must Dispel" visible enchantments, they were soon Dispelled as opponent's Dispel quota had not been depleted (if you include restraint, use them in large quantities). I far prefer Tanglevines to Force Hold as they are cheaper points and players run out of Teleports faster than Dispels. However all of these cards are perfectly reasonable to be considered in your variant to suit your local meta. I just prefer good old fashion creature toolbox quantity (all high quality) and position, removing opponent's reactions in an action burst via Transfusion. Combo (this build hybrids with spell points-conscious Attrition) is about "opportunity windows", gaining a burst of free actions to deny responses.
So what are the problems faced? Cervere is a problem but your Shield plus armour should be enough while you mana-efficiently remove her. Fragile Huginn is rarely played (usually with Bull Endurance and Regrowth for resilience) but this causes major problems as it peeks over your Stone Walls etc and can return the opponent to safety, so you need to have the second set of Transfusions ready for it before you spring the trap. Nullifies need to be rooted out first, costing an action window, meaning you need to time your trap well (always leverage Last QC then First QC double fast action when you gain initiative), even worse when they have that timed Nullify using Transfusion which can't be rooted out (just accept the mana loss from your Teleport Wand to use up their trick). Divine Intervention (needs no line of sight to escaped walled-in) is also there as Holy Epic so accept you need to do the trick twice (don't wall in first time) and Seeking Dispel any face down enchantments before doing it (reveal gets round Jinx Nullify). Multiple ranged units (zonal control) can, if timed properly with a Force Wave, cause problems so you need to adopt more aggressive Cheetah Speed Hydras and Gorgons approach, with Teleport into my kill zone assassinations to ensure opponent does not get zonal control over your "L" 3 corner zones. Finally, lucky Seeking Dispels may hit a key piece twice to break the combo trap, forcing you down the walled-in route or change to the standard Teleport attrition strategy. That is the main advantage of this book over prior iterations which used control conjurations as, although it lacks any finesse, this has a plan B.
I believe this build has even stronger match-ups vs. non-wizard decks than Watergate (but now that Charmyna has shared his book, I feel his build has a slight edge in a match-up). Golems are almost an auto-win against the Forcemaster, Beastmistress and Curse Warlock. Against Air Wizard or Priest, it may be best to bring out living creatures first (so toolbox based on match-up). The whole build is a result of a meta where swarm is currently not viable (for reasons given in a strategy thread) hence multi-target attacks (as range 1 or 0 full actions) are not played, allowing for congregating your forces in a kill zone. Once the new expansion is out, with Corrode and Etherian Lifetree and the meta changing to popular swarms resulting in zone attacks being added to books, this book will not be tier 1. So make the most of the build while it is dominant, a current strong and easy-to-play build (unbeaten in our local meta against variety of mages and strategies). Be warned though that, although an easy idea, it is still a wizard build hence there is much subtle skill mastering the book. It is however more brutal than Watergate’s attrition which seems a daunting and draining book to play requiring far more skill.
This build leverages the benefits of not needing to invest resources like move actions in closing in with the enemy, summoning very cost efficient, resilient and control immune threats to guard you in time that then becomes suicidal to assault until a larger force is summoned out of range of your significant ranged threats. But this increases your advantage (better channelling) until you finally spend accumulated resources to lure and trap your opponent for an end game spike damage kill.
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The thing about this book is that it's such a fundamentally sound strategy that there's rarely ever any need for fancy tactics. It's a very strong book if you're looking to win, but don't play it too much or you'll get bored and maybe stunt your growth.
In the near future, I expect this book will weaken, but will not be eclipsed and may very well be adaptable with new tech. Gorgon Archers are just fine at softening up Beastmaster swarms, even if their poison won't work on Zombies. Iron Golems are still the cheapest 6 die attack available, and even with corrosion are still going to be hard to kill. Wizard's Tower will cast any new attack spells, and still casts Fireball, which seems good.
This, I think, is probably the strongest "fair" book. No card or combo in this book is likely a surprise to the playtesters (though the cumulative effect might be), it's just a solid way to play as many of the best cards as possible.
Also, 3 Harmonize? Ewwww. :-) So slow www.
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Thanks.
I appreciate Harmonize is not popular (you have Arcane Ring discount). In some games, I don't upgrade Forge or Tower as the opponent has enough concentrated ranged power to remove them (I upgrade myself for cost 4 with both rings). But longer games where opponent builds for a big assault, those extra 2 spell points spent become invaluable extra 2 mana. The problem with having 4 spell actions is you need mana to fully leverage it. As you "own" just 3 zones, one with a forge, that leaves you channel 14 (a key amount for Golem + enchant friendly creature, also 2 Walls of Stone). Add 2 from Tower and you have enough for 2 Hurl Boulders per turn if needed (plus 2 on Forge). Opponent is faced with attacking you early (but turn 2 Golem then potential turn 4, 5, 6 Golems makes it a daunting task) or building up out of range to amass a huge force, when those extra 2 Harmonize investments pay off big. Generally, hyper aggressive builds do the former, mid range and control the latter. So the extra 2 Harmonize do have a purpose, though not in every match-up.
I am looking forward to how the new cards will shake up the meta. It is a bad for any customisable game whenever 1 build becomes too dominant so I welcome Corrode and Lifetree as meta changers. I decided to put this out to pasture before it became obsolete, or at least significantly weakened. After players play their interesting ideas against its brutal efficiency, what I called back in August "its demoralising inevitability", you appreciate the game really needs all those meta-changing cards as soon as possible to create a vibrant meta of equally viable builds. It felt more responsible posting it now, just before our new cards arrive, rather than Gencon time when I was first to post my prediction of an Earth Wizard win (albeit a different build, I believe).
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Speaking of using Wizard's Tower against the Druid, this came up on my twitter feed:
(http://fbcdn-photos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/s720x720/1238911_10200475206464654_1200389887_n.jpg)
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Very nice. [Like] When did that Gary Gygax invention, the "Owlbear", become a cultural icon reference?
I do hope there is some tech the Druid has to combat fire. Let's ignore watering plants chestnut. They can have your card image above...
"Smokey, the Owlbear Forest Fire Fighter". Legendary Level 4 Nature Creature. Slow. During Upkeep, remove all Burn counters on Plants in its zone. All Plants in its zone gain Flame -2 (so 0 net in current cases, no help for Trolls, wooden structures etc).
Like Malaconda in reverse, only for Plants. Because I am concerned having potential Nemesis match-ups is not good for a customisable game. You don't want Earth Wizard vs. Forcemaster again. It's healthy to have advantageous 60/40 match-ups in a paper-scissors-stone meta where no match-up is an almost foregone conclusion. But make it 90/10 and it feels like a lottery.
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Ok, so I haven't played this book in ages (as ringkichard said, it is brutally efficient but it lack finesse, you want to have more fun winning). I brought it out and played it last night with a few changes and this definitely made the build far better. So I thought I should share them.
Firstly, in our local meta, to stop wallet gaming, we all agreed to play with books made from an equal pool. We started with 1 Core but we soon added FvW then CoK when it came out. Hence this book is built with that limit in mind. So the reason why it doesn't have 4 Teleports etc is because of this constraint. In the end, you adhere to the rules of your local meta. This doesn't stop you from adding them if you can.
The changes I made were:
+3 Tanglevine (for more assassinations, provoke to deplete opponent's Teleports with Transfused Nullify ready to counter) = +6 points
+1 Nulllify, +1 Enchantment Transfusion (timed Nullify awesome, less likely for combo pieces to be hit by Seeking Dispel) = +2 points
+1 Wizard's Tower (because it can be killed by ranged, try not to lose a Hurl Boulder before it dies) = +2 points
-5 Nature enchantments (only visible enchantments are Harmonize which nobody Dispels, other enchants are trap triggers) = -10 points
So now the list stands at...
14 EQUIPMENT (22)
1 Arcane Ring (1)
1 Enchanter's Ring (1)
1 Moonglow Amulet (1)
1 Dragonscale Hauberk (2)
1 Storm Drake Hide (2)
2 Elemental Cloak (2)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Eagleclaw Boots (2)
3 Mage Wand (6)
1 Elemental Wand (2)
1 Regrowth Belt (2)
12 CONJURATIONS (24)
1 Battle Forge (4)
2 Mana Crystal (2)
2 Wizard's Tower (4)
2 Wall of Stone (4)
1 Wall of Thorns (2)
1 Fog Bank (2)
3 Tanglevine (6)
7 CREATURES (24)
4 Iron Golem (12)
2 Darkfenne Hydra [8]
1 Gorgon Archer (4)
15 ENCHANTMENTS (17)
3 Harmonize (3)
5 Nullify (5)
3 Enchantment Transfusion (3)
2 Jinx (2)
1 Spiked Pit (3)
1 Teleport Trap (1)
15 INCANTATIONS (25)
4 Dispel (4)
1 Purge Magic (3)
2 Seeking Dispel (2)
4 Dissolve [8]
3 Teleport (6)
1 Force Push (2)
4 ATTACKS [8]
2 Hurl Boulder (4)
1 Jet Stream (2)
1 Surging Wave (2)
Elemental Wand stays as I feel I need to threaten 2x Hurl Boulders (+ Gorgon) to keep them at bay beyond range 2 amassing troops for an assault that arrives too late. However, this is a local meta call as I can see value in swapping Elemental Wand for Dispel Wand (props to Charmyna for spotting this tech I dismissed). It just seems wrong not leveraging the threat of 2x Hurl Boulder as Earth Wizard though.
Note: Dispel is the only popular incantation that can't be Transfusion Nullified (Dissolve can be and often needs to be Nullified with my 1 Core equipment limitation, though Dissolve is more telegraphed as it is range 1). Hence by removing this vulnerability, the book becomes more denial-control while supporting trap elements. The action, mana and 2 spell points spent for 1 extra die in Hawkeye is never worth it. Why Cheetah Speed your teleported Hydra when a Tanglevine on target deals full action damage? Yes, losing a Rhino Hide hurts but the opponent's Dispel will kill it at range 2 anyway. Spiked Pit's stuck 1+ and Tanglevine are nearly the same effect, just the former is useful if you need to "embed" an action preparing for a long distance Teleport of a distant opponent (who you need to sniff out his Nullify first).
I am kicking myself I hadn't evolved my old semi-retired build to this version before posting. I am sure there are other improvements that others will suggest that I hadn't considered.
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One "problem" spell you didn't mention is Destroy Magic. Seems like if you're taking the time to set up a kill-zone of Golems with Transfuses on them, your opponent could play defensively for a couple turns, then sprint forward and cast it. He will destroy 6-10 of your mana with 16 of his own, but he just gained 3-5 actions on you, has a good base of mana + ranged creatures, and you have some slow golems stuck in the corner. Thoughts?
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Trigger the Transfusion when he or she casts the Destroy Magic. You need to leave up X mana as a precaution, but it doesn't take an action.
You also need to have a creature outside the Zone if you don't want to slap them all onto the opponent immediately, but usually you'll want to hit the opponent anyway.
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Bah, that's true. I also forgot that Destroy Magic is a full action with a max range of 1. So you'd have to be well within trap-springing range to even cast it.
It could be useful the turn after you get trapped I guess. Since it's a full action it won't get stopped by Jinx, and you can then teleport yourself out.
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I am not sure that if Destroy Magic can be thwarted in this manner. If it were a Jinx, Nullify, or Reverse Magic, then yes those can counter the Incantation. But my question is can you reveal it after it is cast and has targeted the zone.
Destroy all enchantments in target zone (both revealed and hidden), regardless of what they are attached to.
Since Transfusion is not a mandatory reveal, wouldn't be destroyed before you can reveal it? The timing items like this always has a bit of confusion in the wording to me.
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The rules for revealing enchantments say that you can reveal an enchantment at the end of any of the 3 steps in casting a spell. Doesn't matter whose turn it is. So I would cast and reveal Destroy Magic, targeting the zone with Golems in it. At the end of the Cast Spell step, DeckBuilder could reveal Transfuse and resolve it, moving the enchantments out of the zone. Then we'd go to the Resolve Spell step, and the Destroy Magic would have basically no effect since all the enchantments were moved out of the target zone.
Would I be correct in saying that there's basically no counter-play to Transfuse Enchantment?
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Bah, 4 or 5 responses while I write my "short" reply :)
One "problem" spell you didn't mention is Destroy Magic. Seems like if you're taking the time to set up a kill-zone of Golems with Transfuses on them, your opponent could play defensively for a couple turns, then sprint forward and cast it. He will destroy 6-10 of your mana with 16 of his own, but he just gained 3-5 actions on you, has a good base of mana + ranged creatures, and you have some slow golems stuck in the corner. Thoughts?
Firstly, thank you reading this so thoroughly and trying to work out solutions. Good spot, sir. Yes, Destroy Magic looks like a problem.
I don't want to lessen your good point as I want more people to "poke holes" at it. However Destroy Magic is
1. range 0-1 zone target (no Nullify)
2. FULL action (no sprint forward but also no Jinx)
3. level 4 Arcane spell (read: Arcane mage only)
4. for 16 mana (assume wizard QC Teleport adjacent for 6 more from out of range)
I have say a hidden Transfusion, Nullify, Jinx and all 3 Harmonize in my zone. I don't have Spiked Pit as I always cast it last and it serves as an "embed restraint" trigger that is only needed if opponent is out of range of simple Teleport + Tanglevine (transfusing Nullify Jinx).
If wizard does it at safe range 1, I just Transfuse the Nullify Jinx onto him adjacent before it resolves.
He has used his QC to Teleport there, he is now rife for a Wand Teleport + Tanglevine.
If he does it at range 0 (this means he was within range 2 before his Teleport and I did nothing) and there are no other targets within 2 to save them, then I lose the Nullify Jinx. But he is in the lion's den having used his QC Teleport then his mage's full action. 2x Stone Wall (far worse than Steel but crucially cheaper, 14 total) seems an option if I have initiative next turn. Even if I don't, say he teleport escapes so I teleport him back (he lost all his enchantments too) and wall him in.
I am not saying it cannot be done (Huginn is your enemy, not Destroy Magic). It is tricky to pull off safely and quite mana (and spell points) expensive even if successful.
Yes, Destroy Magic is something to look out for (I'd be surprised if anyone played it) but because of the "instant" ability of Transfusion, it's not the end of the world.
Killing my Harmonizes does hurt but they always generate equal action net mana advantage vs. Dispel (with arcane ring, even if opponent has an arcane ring). As an aside, don't forget you can cast that Medallion (Arcane Ring -1) and Harmonize (Enchanter Ring -1) in turn 3, then reveal the Harmonize in turn 4 before Channelling to claim the Arcane Ring bonus`and be at 14 Channelling. Anyway, by the time the Wizard does that, I am sure my Harmonizes would have paid for themselves. Still, I am not going to deny that it doesn't hurt losing them.
By splitting my enchantments across targets (Nullify hurts Purge), I had not counted on Destroy Magic so good spot there. But because of the flexibility of Transfusion, it's not quite that disastrous and it may actually result in you being brought into my kill zone with Jinx Nullify then Tanglevine on you.
Slow is also less of a problem with 3 Teleport Wands. I've Plan B if Kill Zone Combo fails, which is to just make raids with regenerating Hydras using Teleport Wand, bringing them back to heal. The build is hybrid Combo and Attrition. If its Combo fails (mainly due to lucky Seeking Dispels hitting Jinx twice), I always have the long game plan (also note FAQ clarifies that moving a target even to itself negates targeting; Seeking Dispel only prevents the target from being revealed so it can be Transfused to itself to negate targeting).
It is quite pricey, both in mana and spell points, to achieve a Teleport + Destroy Magic raid, then safely escape my reply. Still, it's good to consider all the niche cards I've never yet encountered. Thanks for reading and your valued input, it's made me want to look through my card collection for any other cards I've never played to see if it has similar problematic potential.
Any other cards that could cause problems?
Hmmm, Invisible Stalker... Will always be visible to be hit with a big creature, a Wizard's Tower Jet Stream (for Wall Bash) and Final QC Zap. This is because you should have creature overlap over the Forcemaster so you will always get the last action in every round.
The book's biggest danger was Charmyna bringing Huginn into "fashion"! As that pesky bird causes more trouble than anything (I even considered spending 3 spell points to "get it out first" but then you must protect it etc). I did have a very friendly pop at him for using his opinion-maker position to shape the meta. The reason I waited so long before publishing the list I have been alluding to in many other posts is not because "I wanted to keep it to myself" but because I didn't see what good it would do to the game. In my "Etherian Lifetree and Corrode" strategy piece, I mention these new cards helped bring Iron Golems back down to size, which I think is a good thing (I also think Enchantment Transfusion tricks need a nerf card). Knowing the game will change big soon and this book will lose potency (but will evolve), I felt it was time to answer ringkichard's old post.
It's not just those cards but the whole domino effect. If Swarm returns then multi-attacks like Chain Lightning and Zone attacks return to spell books, the bane of kill zones. Find a gap in the meta and exploit it while it lasts. Because nothing lasts forever.
Thank you again for making me think about Destroy Magic, a card I had never considered. Yes, played well with Huginn, this could cause problems and may force you down Plan B, the teleport threats attrition strategy.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts DeckBuilder, they were very informative and a nice read.
It seems to me that you've come across a very strong strategy here and I am struggling to find a good way play around it. Let's say that you spring this trap and prepare two Stone Walls for the next round. If it's your initiative the next turn there's literally nothing I can do, I'll get walled in during the first quickcast phase. But even if it's my initiative it seems there's very little I can do. Any quick spell gets eaten by Jinx, Destroy Magic won't stop you from dropping the walls and starting the Iron Pain Train, and equipping Eagleclaw Boots only has a 50% of getting me out of there due to Stuck - and they'll get Dissolved before I get another chance to move.
Seems like the only way to beat this is to win before X number of turns have gone by, mostly because of the lack of counter-play to Transfuse Enchantment. From a game design perspective I don't really like that.
Having said that, I am very new to the game so it's possible that more skilled players would see this coming and pocket a Nullify each round, or figure out a way to win while hiding in the opposite corner, or something.
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I like this book, current non-promo meta books like this are practically impossible to beat without a misplay (three or four actually) from the Wizard. Piercing capabilities currently are quite low and until DvM is released Acid Ball is not available for play, these will help opposing mages deal with the high armor points, which all of these styles of build depend upon.
When (if) Critical Strike is released (and isn't nerfed) Iron Golem will be much less of a threat, along with conjurations like Wizards Tower and Gate To Voltaire, as we all know, no armor makes it easy to kill things.
Last thought how many rounds is it taking to get the trap set? I do not think that I would let you get four Iron Golems out, plus the Enchantments, plus the Walls, you are talking 6+ rounds correct?
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From a game design perspective I don't really like that.
I totally agree. That's why I hesitated listing it, for the good of a game I love. It's not Iron Golems really, a temporarily undercosted creature. They can easily be brought back down to size. It's the "instant" ability of Transfusion (try it with kiting curse Warlock against a mage without Purge Magic) that needs a card to hurt it. The burst of "saved actions" you get with Transfusion is similar to a burst of "bonus actions" you get with conjuration ready marker abuse. But neither of these get to the core issue. Which is "Teleport your Mage to my Kill Zone" strategy.
Only a nerf to Teleport of "Non-Enemy Mage Creature" will permanently stop Mage assassination. It will mean the game can become what it is meant to be. I have a lovely Warlord zonal control book, ranged plus guards. No point because he just dies to assassination. Nerfing Teleport will cause an uproar. But it would be good for the game. The Wizard would still be strong, teleporting his Hydra around the board and bringing their ranged threats to your multiple threats. He retains board control. But he loses the Sudden Checkmate victory he always has unless this ability is nerfed. Wizards should not have that brutal option (they can still burst damage with attack spells at end game).
Last thought how many rounds is it taking to get the trap set? I do not think that I would let you get four Iron Golems out, plus the Enchantments, plus the Walls, you are talking 6+ rounds correct?
Yes, the fastest (unrealistic because undisrupted) opening is something like...
Forge / Crystal
(Arcane Ring) / Crystal / Golem
(Enchanter Ring) / Medallion / Harmonize self (reveal turn 4 before Channel 14 for ring discount)
Golem / Transfusion
Golem / Nullify (not first else they target creature to mandatory trigger it, you now got options to disrupt)
Golem / Jinx
(Wand Teleport) / Teleport / Tanglevine (Transfuse Jinx Nullify when they try to QC)
Stone Wall x2
But I never really plan beyond turn 2 or latest 3 because you have to react to your enemy.
Firstly, I have a Golem cast turn 2 ready turn 3. Not quite fast enough for Divine Intervention openings (not a fan, a huge investment soon removed) but I can see his opening and react accordingly.
Let's look at how it fares against one possible Beastmaster Aggro opening.
Turn 1:BM double moves to Near Centre and casts Battle Forge in Far Centre.
Turn 2: (Ring of Beasts) BM moves 1 closer (not Far Centre, avoid Forge) and cast Falcon Pet and Rouse the Beasts to attack corner.
Turn 3: (Enchanter's Ring) Cervere and Rouse the Beasts for last action attack (creature overlap). Falcon Pet goes for a Crystal if Golem goes on guard first action (if Wizard started with Initiative) else first action attacks the Wizard again.
If I am playing against Beastmaster and I don't start with Initiative, I may open instead summon Golem on turn 1 to ensure I have a guard ready first action next turn against the above Beastmaster opening. This delays a mana efficient optimal opening for safety. You're a poor chess player if you always stick to the same predictable opening. This great game's hardest skill is predicting the opponent's game plan.
Yes, a hyper aggressive build can cause problems but it just means you tool up on armour (Forge) and weather the storm. Every Wizard can face this Beastmaster opening. A Wizard that maximises distance then summons a Golem turn 2 then possibly again turn 4, 5 and 6 can weather the storm better than most Wizards. Otherwise Beastmaster would be winning all the time and not Wizards.
Warlock's Lord of Fire / Cheetah Speed / Shift Enchantment super aggro opening is less of an issue as Warlock does not have the swarm overlap that Beastmaster has. And Golems are Burnproof with Poison Immunity versus Warlock. (Let's not consider Forcemaster aggro.)
Against Priest or Air Wizard, Earth Wizard opts for a Hydra guard like we all did when first playing Wizard to avoid Light / Lightning issues.
The reason there are 7 elite creatures is because against such an early onslaught, you will trade elites. But you have more elites than any other build, very resilient to boot. You should have enough left to win with after you have weathered the storm.
Maybe I should post my beloved Straywood Beastmaster book (with Galador of course) as it has come the closest to beating Earth Wizard due to its super aggro opening.
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The long term strategic weakness of Golem Pit is just that it's kinda slow for a combo book. Grizzly Wizard with Teleport and Force Hold and Mage Tower can probably spring the telefrag faster.
A faster combo will beat it, if you have one. That would mean a combo relying on Fellella or the Imp, or a dedicated push-thorn book with Hugin. Basically, any combo book that lets you use a spawnpoint to accelerate setup or crush resistance.
Come to think of it, dedicated push-thorn can use Wizard's Tower and Acid Ball along with Dissolve, and might be faster without resorting to the fragile familiars.
Come to think of it again, that curse sword familiar might be able to interact well enough. Imp would make a stronger pure combo book, but sword might make an overall stronger agro-combo book. Hmm.
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How about Curse Sword and Imp...hmmm mighty nasty, but two actions.....
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I love your name for it! So much so that I renamed the thread after your name. Hopefully, you will have coined a name for the archetype.
I agree that Curse Warlock is a really interesting combo. But Transfusing all those curses from your Imp familiar to target mage (avoiding Magebind where possible) only demonstrates that the card that I was most excited about, Enchantment Transfusion, is actually another example of breaking the "alternating turns with action overlap" paradigm that is the game's design (at least it is prepared "saved" actions).
I view Transfusion and Ready Marker stacking as symptomatic of the same issue: players should not be allowed to have concentrated bursts of sequential actions anytime that cannot be potentially interrupted by the opponent. It breaks the game's Chess/Go ebb-and-flow.
With equal action markers, double actions + double QC "opportunity windows" occur in the off-initiative then on-initiative turn change-over. If you have 1 more action marker, you deny opponent the double action (you will always force last action every turn) and can potentially get a triple action if opponent acts first on his initiative. If you have 2+ action markers than opponent, you get more sequential actions but the pass mechanic also allows opponent to time when he interjects with actions. However, ability to interrupt does not exist with multiple free action Transfusions and Ready Marker free actions. You are guaranteed that sequence that you want uninterrupted, even if you have just 1 action to his 10 actions. This ability is what is so open to abuse. The powerlessness of the opponent to foil your plan by choosing to act at different times is the key difference and why both issues need to be looked at carefully.
It's made worse by the lack of clarity about Transfusion. LOS from caster, donor and target. The consensus that it does not trigger Nullify (so you can't counter a Transfusion by Transfusing a Nullify in response, creating Magic's "stack" timing issues that instant effects cause). Yet they allowed a response timed to negate or avoid targeting as per the FAQ or as timed counters. I hope they will add more clarity soon.
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It's made worse by the lack of clarity about Transfusion. LOS from caster, donor and target. The consensus that it does not trigger Nullify (so you can't counter a Transfusion by Transfusing a Nullify in response, creating Magic's "stack" timing issues that instant effects cause). Yet they allowed a response timed to negate or avoid targeting as per the FAQ or as timed counters. I hope they will add more clarity soon.
It's not just consensus that Transfusion doesn't trigger Nullify, it's the rules. Revealing an Enchantment doesn't have resolution steps, so the opponent is never given the opportunity to do anything between the time you start revealing and when the Enchantment takes effect completely. (Unless revealing the Enchantment does something like cast a spell or make an attack that has its own resolution steps.)
You also can't use a Divine Intervention to avoid an Enchantment Transfusion once the Transfusion's controller uses it. There's just never an opportunity.
Yes, that's right; not even God can save you from Enchantment Transfusion.
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Deckbuilder, isn't it fair to ask or at least consider that part of the strategy of being a thinking opponent is watching out for someone setting up big action advantage sequences? Sure you can't interrupt it once its activated, but usually there are a range of turns necessary to build it up... isn't there?
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Deckbuilder, isn't it fair to ask or at least consider that part of the strategy of being a thinking opponent is watching out for someone setting up big action advantage sequences? Sure you can't interrupt it once its activated, but usually there are a range of turns necessary to build it up... isn't there?
Yes, after consideration, you are entirely right here, Moonglow. Maybe I am being alarmist about the potential of Enchantment Transfusion. The player who uses it pays for all the actions in advance +1 more action (for the ability to time attachments). Its existence, its "multiple enchantmens moved as no-action" almost single-handedly creates Combo here (in a game of choose 2 spells where having spell X and spell Y together is no problem). In this case, the combo is Teleport + Tanglevine + Jinx + Nullify (4 cards in hand in effect) all within the space of 2 consecutive fast actions. This demonstrates the premium value (over normal creature actions) of spell actions (familiars) and the even more premium value of spell ready marker actions (Wizard's Tower). Spawnpoints as spell actions will come in between the two as their timing is limited to Deployment (usually a pre-emptive boon) yet you can string it in a sequence whenever you regain Initiative.
However, currently, there are very few (or maybe even no) tools that an opponent has to disrupt the Combo. That is why, in another thread, I suggested this card (which fits in with promo Altar of Peace so all major schools have an Epic control conjuration).
Shrine of the Warrior Code
Epic Zone Exclusive Temple Conjuration, War Level 2 (cost armour life TBC)
All enchantments (hidden and revealed) gain Upkeep +1
Not only does it reward Warlord for using one-shot Commands and not persistent enchantments which always benefit at least once when revealed (at instant speed too), it creates a problem for enchantment stacking for Transfusion Combos. As Purge Magic targets creature activating any Nullify in the stack, getting round this Combo is quite hard (as trying to kill the donor only moves the stack to another donor).
Of course that card would completely shake the current enchantment-heavy meta, perhaps too much. But the sentiment still applies. They need to give the opponent tools to break the inevitable accumulating Combo trigger.
The longterm issue is not Enchantment Transfusion but the Kill-the-King ability of Teleport into any Kill Zone. Any spell that removes the need to move your creatures removes a critical dimension of the game hence cannot be good. I have thought of two solutions to Teleport Opponent Mage Assassination that does not require an unsightly errata. One is to amend the rules to cover all future Teleport effects: a Mage cannot be Teleported by any effect he does not control (like the Stun exception for Mages). The other is an enchantment I suggested in another thread; "Negate. You MAY reveal to counter incantation targeting this creature". I am sure better people than me can come up with better. Teleport should allow moving your Mage. moving a threat (but not an enemy Mage) into your Kill Zone, moving your Slow threat onto a target but should not allow Luring Enemy Mage into your Kill Zone. This Mage Assassination concept, easily executed in any build, creates turtling like this build and is just too strong, bypassing the finesse other mages (like the Warlord and Priestess) are based upon.
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One is to amend the rules to cover all future Teleport effects: a Mage cannot be Teleported by any effect he does not control (like the Stun exception for Mages).
So you nerf Teleport Trap? I think this would break mechanics within the game. I have setup Kill boxes with a couple of different types of mages.
"Negate. You MAY reveal to counter incantation targeting this creature".
Jinx, Nullify, Reverse Magic all fit the bill here. Since they would/could be attached to the Mage even if you shifted you enchantments, the Teleport spell is an incantation and would/could be countered by one of these spells. If you shifted the one of these enchantments over to my mage (which I think is what is going on here) they would then be used to counter the Teleport.
Unless I am missing something.
It seems to me that a strong mana denial opening by the opposing mage would screw a lot of this timing up. Haven't tested this yet though.
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So you nerf Teleport Trap? I think this would break mechanics within the game. I have setup Kill boxes with a couple of different types of mages.
If you feel that "kill boxes" is a perfectly viable strategy, then maybe Teleport Trap (which has some finesse to use well) should not be nerfed. Yeah maybe it's just a Wizard's cheap access to Teleport which makes the lure just so simple and powerful that is a problem. I don't know the solution, sIKE, but something don't seem quite right if never moving can win you games. This build may be brutally efficient but, after you dazzle your victim the first time with the combo, for repeat games it just doesn't make for a fun game for either player really.
"Negate. You MAY reveal to counter incantation targeting this creature".
Jinx, Nullify, Reverse Magic all fit the bill here. Since they would/could be attached to the Mage even if you shifted you enchantments, the Teleport spell is an incantation and would/could be countered by one of these spells. If you shifted the one of these enchantments over to my mage (which I think is what is going on here) they would then be used to counter the Teleport.
Unless I am missing something.
Yes, I think you did miss the the point. The player defending against an unwanted Teleport cloaks himself with the hidden enchantment (as well as Decoy perhaps, in random order). While this enchant has less scope than Nullify, it is not mandatory like Retaliate. So you can always time it to counter that crucial incantation (teleport).
It seems to me that a strong mana denial opening by the opposing mage would screw a lot of this timing up. Haven't tested this yet though.
Yes, I think you may have solved the puzzle there! Mana denial (I have never played against it really and only played it once, painfully long, described in a "mana denial viable?" strategy thread) could be the solution. I would be very happy to discover it was. Siphon will be within 2 of my Wizard's Tower but it may be a trap to be distracted (12 is still ok). The good thing about Golems is most other control conjurations have no effect (Idol, Deathlock, Orb, only Obelisk hurts but can't combo with Mind Control). I think faced with purist Mana Denial, I would play a more aggressive game, venturing out instead. The mana denial of the above proposed anti-enchantment conjuration may have shown the way after all. I hope your test proves this to be true.
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I didn't think about the transfuse-Jinx trick, nice one sIKE. That still doesn't really solve the assassination issue though. All the other mage has to do is prepare two teleports instead of just one. You may say he's giving up an action here but it doesn't matter - as soon as he teleports you to the kill zone, he wins. And I think that's the issue: a wizard deck built around assassination will probably have 4 teleports plus wands, and eventually one will get through. You can delay it, sure, but even if you prepared two Nullifys every round you'd still get teleported thanks to initiative.
I like DeckBuilder's previous suggestion of errata-ing Teleport's targeting to be "Non-enemy-mage creature". Another solution could be a new enchantment called Dimensional Anchor that prevents teleporting effects. But the former is more elegant.
Mana-denial seems like a great counter-strategy, but what about all the other non-Wizard mages? Since mana-denial has to be factored in during deckbuilding (it's not just a playstyle you can switch into once you see the assassination coming, you need the right cards), now everyone has to play mana-denial to avoid getting assassinated. Yay, more reasons to play Wizard over anything else!
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While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks. A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.
I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells. After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there). A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx. Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.
A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.
Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.
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Yes, I think you did miss the the point. The player defending against an unwanted Teleport cloaks himself with the hidden enchantment (as well as Decoy perhaps, in random order). While this enchant has less scope than Nullify, it is not mandatory like Retaliate. So you can always time it to counter that crucial incantation (teleport).
Purge Magic into Teleport still beats it. Unless you have a Nullify or something up. But now you're spending more actions than the opponent just to avoid something.
While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks. A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.
I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells. After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there). A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx. Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.
A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.
Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.
So basically, everyone should just play two different things: Air Wizard to beat Assassination Wizard, and Assassination Wizard to beat everything else.
Sorry, I know that's not what you're saying. Seems like all theorycrafting just devolves into "the wizard can do it better".
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Yes, I think you did miss the the point. The player defending against an unwanted Teleport cloaks himself with the hidden enchantment (as well as Decoy perhaps, in random order). While this enchant has less scope than Nullify, it is not mandatory like Retaliate. So you can always time it to counter that crucial incantation (teleport).
Purge Magic into Teleport still beats it. Unless you have a Nullify or something up. But now you're spending more actions than the opponent just to avoid something.
While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks. A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.
I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells. After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there). A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx. Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.
A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.
Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.
So basically, everyone should just play two different things: Air Wizard to beat Assassination Wizard, and Assassination Wizard to beat everything else.
Sorry, I know that's not what you're saying. Seems like all theorycrafting threads just devolve into "the wizard can do it better".
You skimmed right over the part where I named three other mages that I think can aggro-rush faster than you can set up the combo. So I'm actually saying that I think you can play 4 different builds that can beat this depending on how it all plays out. If mana denial works, then that's 5.
What about a build that ALSO doesn't leave it's opening zone? Do you really think that you're going to out-turtle a Priestess? I'm not sure you can. If not, that's 6 builds that can beat it (again, depending on how it all plays out, nothing is 100% in this game).
So to boil this down to "play Wizard or lose" is oversimplifying both my argument and this game.
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So to boil this down to "play Wizard or lose" is oversimplifying both my argument and this game.
I think you are right. Maybe I just need a break from the forum. I always tend to enjoy a game less if I hang around on its forums too much. Too much theorycrafting and not enough playing :)
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When we are talking about this particular meta: Earth/Water Wizard they are practically unbeatable when played by a experienced player. I know that I am not among the elite of MW players, but I do not consider myself a slouch. Even knowing going into a game with say Charmyna what I was facing, he chewed through three different mages the first two I forfeited (yes everyone just like chess, if you see mate, call the game) with in 5-7 rounds. The last one I gave him a good challenge and could of potentially won if not for a Dissolve/WoT/Force Push combo that finished me off.
I have had much better luck with Promos than without. Critical Strike on a Wand with Temple High Guards (one a Holy Avenger) can deal quite a quick amount of damage even to the Iron Golems.
I think corrode is going to change the Wizard meta allot. I can tell you I am already planning a couple of Wand with Acid on them to splash on Gate to Voltaire, Battleforge, Mana Crystal, Golems, and heavily armored mages. As we get more cards and the piercing trait will help balance things out.
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While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks. A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.
I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells. After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there). A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx. Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.
A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.
Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.
Thanks for your post, Koz, but I never posted it as a challenge, unbeatable. Just as a strong tier 1 build that has not been beaten in my local meta. Hence why I was first to predict unfashionable Earth Wizard to win at Gencon citing all the tricks in this thread. I think (I may be wrong) you predicted Warlock (such as piousflea) or Forcemaster to win. I appreciate that the Earth Wizard win was a different build but the principle still stands that a Wizard can handle super-aggressive.
I have even stated in my analysis against super-aggressive Beastmaster post that I would adjust my standard opening, a caveat I stated in my very first post. There is never just "one way" to play a well-built book and from the plethora of free action armour (plus Shield), with a Golem on turn 2 latest etc, please be assured that it can handle aggression. I am not saying the pressure from these aggressive builds cannot beat it. Just that in our local meta, they have all failed. Although my Beastmaster almost won (I was Beastmaster with my friend's card pool and my friend was playing my book, an older iteration with Idol of Pestilence, Deathlock and Orb instead of Arcane creatures).
From the tone of your post, Koz, you seem a bit riled, as if the concept offends you personally and your mission is to diminish it. I think the last time I saw you this riled was when you vigorously defended Hand of Bim-Shalla Temple of Light as NOT overpowered. Actually no, it was a "vigorous debate" you had with Dude regarding must-have cards and your opinion of his Jokhtari build. Anyway, I know I shouldn't fan the flames refuting what you have written but hey, I like to play with fire. So...
I have mentioned Huginn is the combo's biggest problem, more than once, even in my opening post. In fact, it was because of Huginn "breaking the lock" that I hybridised the book into Plan B, attrition teleporting monsters. That's why I have the 2 Hydra and Gorgon, to go down a more traditional route when the Combo will fail against a good player.
I have also mentioned at least once that against Air Wizard or Priest, I forego Golems for the traditional Arcane monstrosities because of Lightning and Light issues. This was the advantage of having 7 elites, so few bad match-ups as you have alternative creature threats.
I won't even mention the Forcemaster match-up (I feel so sorry when my opponent reveals Forcemaster vs. this Earth Wizard).
As for Priestess turtling, that's what Teleport Trap and Spiked Pit is for. Although the post below is unfair as it talks about a teaching game (I knew my potential recruit liked combos so I was showing off a bit), it does show some of the tricks available.
Sorry to hijack this thread but Enchantment Transfusion not needing LOS reminds me of a memorable game anecdote I have to share...
Playing Earth Wizard in a teaching game, I had 4 Stone Golems with Pestilence Idol in my start corner trapped within 2 of my own Walls of Steel! I was in NC with Enchantment Transfusion, Force Hold and Nullify all hidden on me, enemy Priestess in his start corner with c.40 life (from Sunfire Amulet, Brogan had destroyed Deathlock and other conjurations before dying to Lightning Bolts from the toolbox Wizard's Tower). Going last, I moved to FC and cast Teleport Trap on NC then QC Teleport on his mage onto my trap which then teleported him to my corner Wall of Steel cell with 4 Golems (Teleport Trap needs no LOS). I had initiative next turn. He Early QC Eagleclaw Boots (he was 3 away from me). I moved back to NC, cast Jinx on myself then transfused all 3 other enchantments on me to his mage (Transfusion needs no LOS). Unable to escape (Force Hold now revealed), he cast his other spell Blinding Flash that did not Jinx, 3 Golems Dazed, 1 Golem Stunned (+2 vs. Nonliving). But over 2 turns of attacks from my Golems was just enough to kill him (next turn, he cast Dispel twice delayed by Jinx to break the Force Hold but the turn after, my first action Golem attack killed him just before he climbed out).
Yes, I know this was over-elaborate (it was a demo to a beginner who set up a strong fort of Archers + Guardian Angels + ToL that almost killed me, saved by Voltaric Shield and Force Orb). A Spike Pit and (already set-up) Enchantment Transfusion on Nullify plus Jinx does the same thing more efficiently. But I wanted to demo some of the potential trickery in the game as I knew he likes difficult to pull-off combos.
I half suspect that someone will now say that we played by the wrong rules!
I am well aware that zonal attacks (and worse Chain Lightning) causes problems. If you missed it, I was demonstrating how, because these spells (and damage barriers) have become scarce in spell books (1 Ring of Fire in Warlock is about it really) because swarm is not seen to be a threat (for reasons given in my "Etherian Lifetree and Corrode" strategy thread). Because of this "gap in the meta", this build thrives until the new set arrives. I am perfectly aware of all those Core set spells like Electrify and Circle of Lightning. Did you really think only you had suddenly thought of these silver bullets that I had totally forgotten about?
Compare how I refute your claims to how I embraced sIKE's claim Mana Denial was possibly an Achilles heel - because I hadn't played against it, unlike the staple strategies you cited. Or how I mulled over niche Destroy Magic and gave it a fair chance appraising it?
I think what really riled me was the plain aggressive way that you responded to Lettucemode who, btw, is quite new to this forum but very enthusiastic. I recall reading your angry exchanges with piousflea on BGG over Warlock being weaker than Beastmaster. I remember you being so abrasive to The Dude in a "must have cards" thread that, chilled out as he is, he even called you "rude".
You really need to stop being so aggressive and antagonistic and rubbing people up the wrong way. I know you are incredibly talented at it but it's not something to flaunt. Really, it's not.
I respect your thoughts and think you are a very knowledgeable player. I am sure that in person at a Con, you are far more personable. But the way you take everything as a personal affront, and especially the way you treat other posters so dismissively (some of whom are new and easily intimidated by the forum), you really need to examine your responses and see that you are not coming off well in print.
Just chill, Koz. I wasn't dissing your favourite builds. I was simply playing to the meta and also highlighting some mechanic issues in the game via a very strong build. The disdain that you show, I don't know what to think of it, but its puts people off. Just chill?
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I think you are right. Maybe I just need a break from the forum. I always tend to enjoy a game less if I hang around on its forums too much. Too much theorycrafting and not enough playing :)
Lettucemode, please do not be put off this forum by Koz's abrasive "charm". He's pretty notorious for it frankly.
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While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks. A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.
I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells. After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there). A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx. Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.
A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.
Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.
Thanks for your post, Koz, but I never posted it as a challenge, unbeatable. Just as a strong tier 1 build that has not been beaten in my local meta. Hence why I predicted Earth Wizard to win at Gencon citing all of the above mechanics. I think (may be wrong) you predicted Warlock (piousflea) or Forcemaster to win. I appreciate that the Earth Wizard win was a different build but the principle still stands that a Wizard can handle super-aggressive.
I have even stated in my analysis against super-aggressive Beastmaster post that I would adjust my standard opening, a caveat I stated in my very first post. There is never just "one way" to play a well-built book and from the plethora of free action armour (plus Shield), with a Golem on turn 2 latest etc, please be assured that it can handle aggression. I am not saying the pressure from these aggressive builds cannot beat it. Just that in our local meta, they have all failed. Although my Beastmaster almost won (I was Beastmaster with my friend's card pool and my friend was playing my book, an older iteration with Idol of Pestilence, Deathlock, Orb of Suppression instead of the Arcane creatures).
From the tone of your post, Koz, you seem a bit riled, as if the concept offends you personally and your mission is to diminish it. I think the last time I saw you this riled was when you vigorously defended Hand of Bim-Shalla Temple of Light as not overpowered. Actually no, it was the "vigorous debate" you had with The Dude regarding must-have cards and your opinion of his Jokhtari build. Anyway, I know I shouldn't fan the flames refuting what you have written but hey, I like to play with fire. So...
I have mentioned Huginn is the combo's biggest problem, more than once, even in my opening post. In fact, it was because of Huginn "breaking the lock" that I hybridised the book into Plan B, attrition teleporting monsters. That's why I have the 2 Hydra and Gorgon, to go down a more traditional route.
I have also mentioned at least once that against Air Wizard or Priest, I forego Golems for the traditional Arcane monstrosities because of Lightning and Light issues. This was the advantage of having all 7 elites, no few bad match-ups as you toolbox choices.
I won't even mention the Forcemaster match-up, pure opponent.
As for Priestess turtling, that's what Teleport Trap and Spiked Pit is for. Although the post below is unfair as it talks about a teaching game (I knew my potential recruit liked combos so I was showing off a bit), it does show some of the tricks available.
Sorry to hijack this thread but Enchantment Transfusion not needing LOS reminds me of a memorable game anecdote I have to share...
Playing Earth Wizard in a teaching game, I had 4 Stone Golems with Pestilence Idol in my start corner trapped within 2 of my own Walls of Steel! I was in NC with Enchantment Transfusion, Force Hold and Nullify all hidden on me, enemy Priestess in his start corner with c.40 life (from Sunfire Amulet, Brogan had destroyed Deathlock and other conjurations before dying to Lightning Bolts from the toolbox Wizard's Tower). Going last, I moved to FC and cast Teleport Trap on NC then QC Teleport on his mage onto my trap which then teleported him to my corner Wall of Steel cell with 4 Golems (Teleport Trap needs no LOS). I had initiative next turn. He Early QC Eagleclaw Boots (he was 3 away from me). I moved back to NC, cast Jinx on myself then transfused all 3 other enchantments on me to his mage (Transfusion needs no LOS). Unable to escape (Force Hold now revealed), he cast his other spell Blinding Flash that did not Jinx, 3 Golems Dazed, 1 Golem Stunned (+2 vs. Nonliving). But over 2 turns of attacks from my Golems was just enough to kill him (next turn, he cast Dispel twice delayed by Jinx to break the Force Hold but the turn after, my first action Golem attack killed him just before he climbed out).
Yes, I know this was over-elaborate (it was a demo to a beginner who set up a strong fort of Archers + Guardian Angels + ToL that almost killed me, saved by Voltaric Shield and Force Orb). A Spike Pit and (already set-up) Enchantment Transfusion on Nullify plus Jinx does the same thing more efficiently. But I wanted to demo some of the potential trickery in the game as I knew he likes difficult to pull-off combos.
I half suspect that someone will now say that we played by the wrong rules!
So I am well aware that zonal attacks (and worse Chain Lightning) causes problems. If you read carefully, I was demonstrating how, because these spells (and damage barriers) have become scarce in spell books (1 Ring of Fire in Warlock is about it really) because swarm is not seen to be a threat (for reasons given in my "Etherian Lifetree and Corrode" strategy thread. Because of this "gap in the meta", this build thrives. I am perfectly aware of all those Core set spells like Electrify and Circle of Lightning. Did you really think only you suddenly thought of some silver bullet that I had totally forgotten about?
Compare how I refute your claims to how I embraced sIKE's claim that Mana Denial was possibly an Achilles heel - because I hadn't played against it. Or how I mulled over Destroy Magic and gave it a fair chance appraising it?
I think what really riled me is the plain aggresive way that you responded to Lettucemode who, btw, is quite new to this forum but vey enthusiastic. I remember reading your angry exchanges with piousflea on BGG over Warlock being weaker than Beastmaster. I remember being so abrasive to The Dude in that "must have cards" thread that he even called you "rude".
You really need to stop being so aggressive and antagonistic and rubbing people up the wrong way. I know you are incredibly at it but it's not something to flaunt.
I respect your thoughts and think you are a very knowledgeable player. I am sure that in person at a Con, you are far more personable. But the way you take everything as a personal affront, and especially the way you treat brave new posters so dismissively, you really need to examine your responses and see that you are not coming off well in print.
Just chill, Koz. I wasn't dissing your favourite build. i was highlighting some mechanic issues in the game via a very strong build. The disdain that you show, I don't know what to think of it but its puts people off. Just chill?
Dude...what in the HELL are you talking about? I was "riled" in my initial post? Freaking LOL! Please point out ONE THING in that post that is aggressive, dismissive or insulting of anyone or anything. I'm not even sure how you could take it as aggressive to be honest. Do you just take any dissenting opinion as "aggressive" or something? Can you not handle someone even mentioning the possibility that your pet build isn't an unstoppable monstrosity needing immediate errata? Dude, I wasn't riled in the slightest before, but I sure am now due to your RIDICULOUS post.
I wasn't even aggressive in my response to Lettucemode, I was pointing out how he was oversimplifying my argument, and that's it. He even responded back that I was right in saying it, so where do you get off chastising me for it? You need to check your attitude man. If Lettucemode took offense because he misread my tone, he didn’t indicate that, and I would have apologized if he had. But I don’t think he did, so why did you?
But thanks for informing me that any dissenting opinion offered by me regarding any position you take will not be tolerated. I will keep that in mind in the future and just ignore everything you have to say.
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I think you are right. Maybe I just need a break from the forum. I always tend to enjoy a game less if I hang around on its forums too much. Too much theorycrafting and not enough playing :)
Lettucemode, please do not be put off this forum by Koz's abrasive "charm". He's pretty notorious for it frankly.
Dude, you need to chill out. Seriously. It's YOU who is coming off as the jackass here. Plain and simple.
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Ok look I do not want to lock this thread but I will not have this turn into a flame war
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You take this as me being angry about "any dissenting opinion", Koz? How come I have been embracing ideas that break this build. Until you come along with your "hey I know how to break this build" with the most bog standard builds out there!
My pet build? Hardly, I had retired it as boring to play for the last month, posting it just before it becomes obsolete by the meta.
Where is your sense of civility and humility? You have so much previous on this issue, Koz. Do I have to search the plethora of flare-ups you have had with everyone? From Piousflea to Dude to me. How many others have you rubbed up the wrong way?
"But it's all their fault" you whinge, "it's never me, I'm just misunderstood."
Compare my polite response to Lettucemode's suggestion of Destroy Magic to how you treated him in your replies to him. Just compare the tone of our replies to this new enthusiastic poster that you have chased away.
I'm certainly not going to stoop to name-calling like you. Hey, I don't need to. I think everyone who has witnessed how you rub everyone up the wrong way knows exactly what you are.
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Wow...just wow. You are the ONLY person on this entire forum who has reacted this way. Any "dust ups" I've had with a handful of others have been resolved between us and usually BOTH parties were posting aggressively.
Whatever, I'm done. Get a grip dude.
P.S. You still didn't point out a single thing in my recent posts here that were aggressive, dismissive or insulting to anyone and why you think its aggressive. Having trouble with that are you? Gee, how strange...
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You skimmed right over the part where I named three other mages that I think can aggro-rush faster than you can set up the combo. So I'm actually saying that I think you can play 4 different builds that can beat this depending on how it all plays out. If mana denial works, then that's 5.
What about a build that ALSO doesn't leave it's opening zone? Do you really think that you're going to out-turtle a Priestess? I'm not sure you can. If not, that's 6 builds that can beat it (again, depending on how it all plays out, nothing is 100% in this game).
So to boil this down to "play Wizard or lose" is oversimplifying both my argument and this game.
This was an aggressive tone and put down to Lettucemode, a new enthusiastic poster. This resulted in him saying he is taking a break from the forum right afterwards. No chain of causation there!
Do you want me to find links to all of your dust-ups and post them?
Please note I've already covered all of your builds in prior posts in this thread. All of them are pretty standard builds, hardly something I've never played against (like mana denial). I even give counter-strategies to them. Nothing in your refutal post was anything new that people hadn't considered. But you say it in such a "you are wrong, these really old archetypes will all beat it" (Forcemaster beat Golems? Don't make me laugh!)
Now I have refuted all your builds with counter-strategies, highlighted how wrong you were on Temple of Light and Hand of Bim-Shalla, on GenCon winner prediction, so many posts out there coming back to haunt you. But you still manage to go against common consensus.
I'm not going to entertain this futile attempt to ask you to stop rubbing people the wrong way anymore. So please do not take my silence to your jibes as me not having anything to say to any response you make. One of us has to get this thread back on track so this is the last I will write about what I thought about your know-it-all arrival in this thread, souring it for everyone.
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Guys this is my 2nd and last warning. Talk to each other like adults with no personal attacks. I will lock this and if it continues after the lock i will suspend accounts.
This is no longer amusing >:(
PS: I did get the reports and have filed them.
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Guys this is my 2nd and last warning. Talk to each other like adults with no personal attacks. I will lock this and if it continues after the lock i will suspend accounts. >:(
I apologize for my reactions here Shad0w, but he got me pretty worked up. I was just posting my thoughts on the subject in a non-aggressive manner (regardless of how he took it), and he basically blindsided me with an avalanche of condescension and insulting comments.
I'm done here and moving on, so you don't have to worry about this continuing from my side.
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Guys this is my 2nd and last warning. Talk to each other like adults with no personal attacks. I will lock this and if it continues after the lock i will suspend accounts. >:(
I apologize for my reactions here Shad0w, but he got me pretty worked up. I was just posting my thoughts on the subject in a non-aggressive manner (regardless of how he took it), and he basically blindsided me with an avalanche of condescension and insulting comments.
I'm done here and moving on, so you don't have to worry about this continuing from my side.
Thank you.
Take some time step back and clear your head.
Check out my Earth Wizard - Control (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13082.0) it is a work in progress but it has had overall good results it is just very hard to play.
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Hey dudes.
First off I want to start by saying that this build is the most awesome boring build I have seen in a while, and I do mean that with a lot of respect. The subtle answers to a diversity of builds is really interesting. The one thing that this build lacks (at least, to me) is creativity. And I think you know this, and it's why you think it's dull to play. It's a fairly straightforward book, and that isn't a bad thing. I could give this build (and I will) to new players who want to be competitive- and they will be. It's a huge problem I face today because my builds are *far* from straightforward, and they are easy to make mistakes with, which is another positive to this build- it's hard to make mistakes with this strategy. In a high pressure (live tourny) situation, I'm forced to believe this book will do well for the reasons stated above. Now, would I take this book to a tourny? Probably not, as it's not my bag, man. And I do tend to mess up a lot more with books I haven't built or do not know well.
Another reason I love this build is it forces you to make creative decisions to ANSWER it's strategy. And not just tactical solutions, either, but spellbook solutions, as well. Koz gave a really great card that I may start spending 6 points to splash- electrify. Even when not facing this build, electrify can stifle a storm way before it erupts, and I love it. As a matter of fact, I was writing off AoEs almost entirely before reading this, and I thank you both.
Reading through this entire post, I'm not sure if I caught it or not, but I do think divine intervention could be an answer here. Granted, you will have to get around both the jinx and the null first, and probably come close to death doing it, but I do think, played at the right time, could be a silver bullet to this particular build, as you would then have to waste countless actions breaking down the walls with golems (easier said than done says the guy that rolls 5 blanks and a natural 1). It would be great to see, though.
Despite the answers given, Hindsight is indeed 20/20, and I know for a fact that I would not have a good chance of winning had I faced this strategy before reading this particular build.
*Ties Tie dye bandanna around head*
Koz- this is a fairly family friendly forum (I JUST ALLITERATED THE PANTS OFF OF EVERYONE HERE!!). You may get angry, but it's still not okay to begin name calling. What was a great discussion on here degenerated quickly after you DID get aggressive. If you don't like what someone says man, just don't reply. It's the internet, man, and if you waste all your time defending your position, you lose sight of the importance of this forum at it's heart- learning and sharing. And I don't mean learning new insults to type either! :P (I jest, I jest!) Can we just get back to the build at hand? And let's save burning people for the Arena.
*Removes Bandanna*
Now, Deckbuilder, I have seen you post this fantastic build. You talked before about how you dismantled it, because of it's snore factor? What I usually do for books that just win, and I get bored of it, is to insert some aggressive strategy into it to give it new life. Maybe change the mage, but keep the idea? Or maybe, you could try a more interesting approach to Golem control? Maybe you could throw Huggy in the mix to try something new. The possibilities are endless, and usually it's through this approach that I find ANOTHER good strategy worth trying.
Bon chance, and happy building to you both!
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Holy mages do have a potentially good match up against Golem Pit with Staff of Asyra and Divine Intervention. Intervention is especially good because if you cast it on yourself before the Transfusion comes down you can trigger it through the Nullify and the Jinx. Just poof away like the combo never happened.
The problem is that you probably still have to fight an attrition game against an Earth Wizard, and except for Brogan, you don't really have any creatures you want to use against Wizard's Tower or Iron Golem, unless you go for legendary Angels, and those are kinda vulnerable to Turn to Stone or similar control effects. And holy has no familiars, and freshly nerfed temples.
But yes, the book is largely strategy, little tactics, and therefore can get kinda dull to actually play. But if you really like winning, this is a book you need to either play or beat reliably.
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I agree Priest (generally aggro) or Priestess (generally turtle), like Air Wizards, are bad for Golems so I switch to normal Wizard game (2 Hydras, Gorgon etc) as the book still has the usual Wizard tools with 3 Teleport Wands and disrupt trigger enchants. Divine Intervention (as mentioned in the "problems paragraph" of my opening post), the use of Light (especially Priest), Angel of Light and Angel of Lightning (latter more seen in Beastmaster swarm) are all big problems for Golems, so much so that I view them simply as end game creatures if they ever come out (the Arcane creatures regenerate so should be frontline when going aggressive attrition strategy).
The reason why the newbie Priestess in that teaching game didn't use Divine Intervention to escape was because he had already used it when he got into trouble earlier when closer, hence why I opted to keep the golems walled in after escape. The books were seeded purely to impress him with the combos possible as I knew he loved games with elaborate combos. I also had full knowledge of his book, knew that he had no Teleport or Nullify (all in my book, 1 Core set then), a set-up. Still, that ridiculously elaborate nail-biting win impressed him enough because he soon after bought his own copy. He may even be lurking in this forum (I spotted him post on BGG). I only mentioned it because it demonstrated some of the trickiness of the build due to Enchantment Transfusion and Teleport Trap not needing line of sight.
Yes, Dude and ringkichard, you are totally correct in surmising the reason I'd retired this book a month ago (one comeback match since) was because it bored me so much, and my opponents felt so frustrated against it. I mentioned this game-detrimental inevitability before.
I humbly predict Wizard to win, probably Earth Wizard. Even against control match ups.
My reasoning...
Enchantment Transfusion (no action Jinx + Nullify on enemy mage once teleported onto Spike Pit with 4 Iron Golems is too strong).
Voltaic Shield and the Gencon tie-breaker
4 Iron Golems + Pestilence + Suppression Orb (+ Deathlock or Gorgon Archer)
Wizard's Tower (Hurl Boulder) + Hawkeye Longbow + Ranged Defences
Metamagic anti-enchantments (Purge vs. stacked curses/buffs)
Enchantment Transfusion is the breakthrough control spell - hurrah!
Voltaic Shield damage prevention with Gencon tie-breaker helps time-outs
My Earth Wizard book (pretty obvious strategy) is unbeaten. In fact, the only game I lost with my Beastmaster (with Galador) was playing against my own Earth Wizard book. There is an inevitability about its victory.
Maybe I haven't worked out how to beat my build yet. The book that caused it most trouble was Warlord ranged zonal control with Bridge Trolls. But I can't see players being ballsy enough to play that... Be great if either won.
Any other guesses which mage will win Gencon?
I've alluded to it in several posts since and even celebrated the impending changing meta's domino effect (see "Etherian Lifetree and Corrode" strategy thread) because it weakens this archetype, not just those 2 effects hurting Iron Golems (much needed) but also kill zone strategy in general (because weenie swarm becoming popular means the return of multi-target attacks and damage barriers).
I decided to post the current (ever-evolving) iteration, so close to an impending meta change (no influence on GrandCon) after replying at length to Imaginator's "Mana Force!" Forcemaster spell book thread (below this one). Replying, I realised I'd never posted a book on this forum and, in order to critique other people's books, I really need to "show and tell" my own. Now most of my builds add no new insight to what experienced players should already know (the card pools are still very small compared to other games; this game rewards superior play). My only builds that said anything new was Curse Warlock and this newly coined Golem Pit, both of which leveraged Enchantment Transfusion. As I knew Golem Pit will soon be reduced in its potency due to Etherian Lifetree and Corrode, I thought the more responsible choice was to post this build. Since then, they have spoiled the Necromancer with his Poison Immunity so it looks like Curse Warlock has a Nemesis mage too now. But Warlock will also evolve with new toys from this coming set. This is as it should be, a living evolving game.
In posting it and embracing any ideas to break it (ideas that I hadn't considered or defeated already), I was also trying to:
(a) demonstrate the value of exploiting "the gap in the meta" (kill zones work because swarms are not seen as viable or dangerous)
(b) turn the spotlight on 2 cards, Enchantment Transfusion (my favourite, a finesse spell) and Teleport (a brutal, less subtle spell)
After debate with some learned posters like sIKE and ringkichard, I have changed my position on Enchantment Transfusion. In this game of "choose 2 spells", it single-handedly creates the Combo archetype (preparation actions to "embed" spells to string together a combo of spells all at once). Because the actions + attach mana are all paid for in advance, in fact you pay 1 extra action + mana (Transfusion itself) for the privilege of timing when to trigger this burst of free actions, this is actually an extremely elegantly designed and balanced card. But there definitely needs to be some "tech" released (beyond Dispel Wand peek to Seeking Dispel on Transfusion) to cause these Combos more trouble. ShadOw's Earth Wizard Control (where Seeking Dispels are deterred with Enchanter's Wardstones, synergetic with a mana denial theme) is another example of the combo's helpless inevitability (as Seeking Dispel on any other card is countered by Transfusion).
Where I still have reservations with is the simplicity of Teleport being used to assassinate enemy mages in your kill zone, usable in any build. The use of oh-so-versatile Teleport for all other functions is fine and in fact part of the trickster wizard's theme. But there is nothing trickster about luring the enemy to your kill zone (Teleport Trap needs finesse to pull off so this should be ok). This brutal use only creates "Teleport Wars", taxing spell points. It also encourages turtling, which is bad for the game. Why waste action resources coming to you if I can force you to come to me? It just deconstructs the game into something I'm far less enamoured with and I hope there are solutions in the new set of cards (like a spell similar to my proposed "Negate" or "Shrine") or something is done about it in a new version Living FAQ.
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Just to clear the air...if you've ever been on an MMO forum, almost everyone is pointing out perceived problems with the game. In the past, wading around in that stuff has really hurt my enjoyment of the relevant game - until I actually go play it again! So yesterday I was really focused on the transfuse-teleport-trap thing and I noticed the same negative feelings welling up so I chose to break away for a bit. Nothing Koz or Deckbuilder said or did was at fault.
Koz, thanks for your comments. I didn't interpret your thoughts or tone as aggressive.
Deckbuilder, thank you for being so willing to create and defend a good environment for new players. That means something.
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Holy mages do have a potentially good match up against Golem Pit with Staff of Asyra and Divine Intervention. Intervention is especially good because if you cast it on yourself before the Transfusion comes down you can trigger it through the Nullify and the Jinx. Just poof away like the combo never happened.
The problem is that you probably still have to fight an attrition game against an Earth Wizard, and except for Brogan, you don't really have any creatures you want to use against Wizard's Tower or Iron Golem, unless you go for legendary Angels, and those are kinda vulnerable to Turn to Stone or similar control effects. And holy has no familiars, and freshly nerfed temples.
Nerfing the Temples really hurt, especially since they went overboard on it (IMO). Still, the Priestess can go toe to toe with an Earth Wizard fairly well, with the results coming down to who is the better player. Even if the Earth Wizard "switches" to the Hydras and Gorgons, they're still in good shape. Most Priestess decks I play against (and all the ones I build) have both Agony and Sacred Ground/Divine Protection in them which greatly mitigates the Hyrda's attacks (especially with a little armor). Obviously such cards can be removed, but you can say that about anything. And using the Gorgon against a Priestess isn't too scary thanks to her ability to remove the Weak counters. Add in all of the Daze/Stun effects and Divine Intervention and you have all of the tools you need to beat the Earth Wizard, it all just comes down to who outplays whom. Those games will go long though...
Earth Wizard is certainly tough, no doubt, but I don't think it's overpowered, just very strong. My opinion anyway.
Disclaimer: Please note that the above was just an opinion and in no way was meant to be aggressive, dismissive or insulting to any person or particular viewpoint.
Apparently I need to add that to every thread started by certain posters to avoid any misconceptions about my intent ;)
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Koz, thanks for your comments. I didn't interpret your thoughts or tone as aggressive.
No problem man, I'm glad you didn't take my comments wrong, I certainly wasn't attempting to be hostile. I'm a bit blunt to be sure, but I try to avoid getting personal in my remarks.
I get what you're saying about spending too much time in the forums and how it can be a bad experience. I've had that same experience in other games. These forums seem pretty good though. Overall this is a good community that generally everyone respects each other. There are a few flare ups here and there, but nothing like you see on other sites.
The admins on the site are good people too. They aren't heavyhanded in their moderation and are fair and responsive.
So, don't be afraid of these forums, they're mostly positive! :)
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On phone.
Priestess with Agony would be very tough yes, nothing I've faced when testing. With all the other tools she has, yes that is one build that would beat it as it would take me by surprise. Maybe Dispel Wand is better after all...
So yes Earth Wizard would probably lose to her in a very long game.
See, reasoned argument, that does not simply list every aggressive mage build out there, is much better.
It was not the criticism of the build but the put down of another. But let's not reopen that.
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I run at least one Agony in every book because it works so well against a few different builds. It hurts aggro-rush and "one big" strategies a lot, both of which have been very popular throughout the games lifecycle.
IMO, it's one of those cards that is useful enough that I have trouble not including at least one in every build, even if I have to pay triple for it.
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I had tested it against a Priest knight avenger guardian angel archer build with light attacks, sort of aggro control, but hydras beat it.
Nobody here plays priestess since the nerf, which was inelegant and did not solve stacking ready marker actions issue. I hope they rescind and solve the real issue instead. My games against new players with my own priestess book are obviously no test. Especially as we play a house rule to not confuse them with errata.
I appreciate the blunting synergy of aegis and agony.
It says something (not good) that the best way to beat this boring turtle build is the original boring turtle build!
The main reason I avoid golems against holy is because of angel of light and lightning. If she is not playing it, less of an issue to use them against her (staff can be dissolved). Obviously temple even nerfed is an issue with golems.
Angel of light is so good that I run her in an unconventional air wizard build with vampiress as there is a lot of golems in our local meta since I unveiled when COK arrived locally.
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Pre-Nerf of Battle Fury, my FM could cut down a Golem in one turn or two. Add a Bear Strength + Charge + BF with the piercing +2 and it is quite easy to take one out with 7 dice + 6 dice, playing with Promo's add Lion Savagery in to the mix you get 9 dice with 3 piercing and 6 dice with 2 piercing. Though on OCTGN I could see my opponents mouth drop open when I shotted his IG. Once a couple of Promo are released I have a build that will used stacked enchantments and 4 Enchanter's Wardstones. I think it will be quite the agro deck not sure of solo or not though at this point....
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Pre-Nerf of Battle Fury, my FM could cut down a Golem in one turn or two. Add a Bear Strength + Charge + BF with the piercing +2 and it is quite easy to take one out with 7 dice + 6 dice, playing with Promo's add Lion Savagery in to the mix you get 9 dice with 3 piercing and 6 dice with 2 piercing. Though on OCTGN I could see my opponents mouth drop open when I shotted his IG. Once a couple of Promo are released I have a build that will used stacked enchantments and 4 Enchanter's Wardstones. I think it will be quite the agro deck not sure of solo or not though at this point....
Agreed very possible to one shot pre nerf. But what about the other 3 golems? :) Or is this set up all before turn 6? I found Purge Magic key playing against FM.
I have very little experience playing with FM so I am going to create a Solo build and post it then watch it being taken apart.
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Thinking of this FM build, I can't see how you got double battle fury on yourself. Or BF plus charge. This is going to look really silly but how is this possible? I thought FM was all about Galvitar double strike plus Dancing Scimitar?
Typing this on a train so can't reference the cards to work out how you did this!
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Thinking of this FM build, I can't see how you got double battle fury on yourself. Or BF plus charge. This is going to look really silly but how is this possible? I thought FM was all about Galvitar double strike plus Dancing Scimitar?
Typing this on a train so can't reference the cards to work out how you did this!
Thoughtspores can have Battle Fury or Charge bound to them so that you dont have to cast them on one of your own actions.
A Thoughtspore can cast Battle Fury, then you Quickcast Charge.
Then you move forward and attack twice-
Charging Quick Attack 1, Battle Fury Quick Attack 2. (and attack 3 from Dancing Scimitar if you have it on)
If you dont have to move, Battlefury yourself and use the full attack option for
-Doublestrike 1, Doublestrike 2, Quickattack 1. (and attack 4 from Dancing Scimitar if you have it on)
Generally though, against an Iron Golem, youll want to Battle Fury and use your Quickattack twice instead of the double stroke.. because the quick has a natural 2 pierce while the Doublestrike/Sweep option has 0 Pierce.
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Of course! My mind was focusing on that solo build challenge. And did not think of familiar help. Doh!
Yes I remember my jaw did drop when my friend one shotted a golem once. In that match I went for near centre as my Pit (you don't need to wall them in) where I placed my Tower and Air Jet to repel threats especially flyers. I was playing the conjurations version then so Idol hurt the spores too. I think he placed spores in 2 corners safe from my NC Tower and one shotted my poor harmless golem. i had to venture out and hurl Boulder them both (hurt by Idol).
Spores are brilliant but even more fragile than Huginn.
Yeah, I am starting to appreciate a Solo FM build is going to be hard. Hmmm
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Forcefield + Defense Chop Suey them one at a time even in the kill box. Pre-Nerf, the FM was total bad a$&.
One of the thing you will see that is common throughout the thread is here is that more piercing and corrode is greatly going to impact this game. Control is going to have much harder time as they will have to spend actions defending the conjurations now as Battle Forge with a couple of Corrodes and hit with a Surging Wave will be an easy kill. Same for Wizards Tower, knock down a couple of Armor points and that 7 Health will be easy to wipe out. Same with the Gate to Voltari knock the armor off or with all these ignore (Piercing) armor and it will be easy(ier) to take out.
I hope to see some of the promos like Lion Savagery, Altar of Peace, Temple High Guard, Plagued, Wand of Healing, and maybe Debilitate come out in DvN.