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Messages - Hedge

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31
Rules Discussion / Re: 2 rise again
« on: December 13, 2013, 04:04:44 PM »
But what happens if the last player chooses to reveal something? do the previous players get an additional chance to reveal also?  The rules seem to dictate so.



Hedge

32
Rules Discussion / Re: 2 rise again
« on: December 13, 2013, 02:18:36 AM »
If you want to get into the ticky tacky of it between each step all player get a chance to respond in the order of play.

So it would be player A do with wish to reveal any enchantments, then after the choice is made you move to the next player. Player B do you wish to reveal. After all players have made the choice you move to the next step and repeat this process. At no point do we go back and ask players more than once per step.


Unless someone reveals an enchantment. It clearly dictates in the section from the rules that it does ask again.


Quote
If both players want to reveal an enchantment at the same time, the player with the initiative goes first. He may reveal as many enchantments as he wants, one at a time, resolving each one before revealing the next. When he is finished, then the other player may reveal any enchantments, revealing and resolving them one at a time. Then the first player can reveal again, and so on. Each enchantment is resolved as soon as it is revealed

The game does not progress until all players decide that it progresses to the next step. Now in another game I played it had things that interupted the normal flow of the game and didn't pass to the next step until all players choose not act consecutively. This seems to be implied with enchantment reveals, but it is not clear.


If I choose not to reveal any enchantments and my opponent does. The chance to reveal should return to me since the game board has changed.

Hedge

33
Rules Discussion / Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« on: December 09, 2013, 01:34:29 AM »
ehhh I could go either way on this one.

Most choices in the game are obvious and go hand in hand with the spells effect.

I cast a dissolve targeting the mage, it resolves, and I choose an equipment to destroy.


You get into some gray areas like the unstable zombie. When it activates I make a choice. Do I have to tell you that choice? I am not sure and could easily see Bryan ruling that you do not have to reveal choices you make.

If that is the case then the wizard does not have to reveal his choice at the beginning of the game.



I believe that you should annouce which you do for the zombie, because it is information that I should know what choice you made so I can react properly. IE  reveal an agony if you chose to lose the lumbering trait.

Quote
As I pointed out earlier the game mechanic rule has little to do with the wizard and the trivial choice of his minor school. When I use Tataree's ability do I have to tell you what I am doing, or is the act of removing the damage / adding mana enough of an acknowledgement that I do not have to tell you if you were not paying attention?


Which is clearly dictated in the stance above. However, from the Rules on Pg 13.

Some spells require you to make additional choices. Your
spell may have a variable casting cost (indicated by an “X”
in the mana cost), or it may have multiple effects for you
to choose from. You must announce which choices you are
making when you cast the spell.



Granted this is only when casting spells, but could easily be extended to anytime a choice has to be made.

34
Rules Discussion / Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« on: December 08, 2013, 09:51:14 PM »
If a choice in Mage Wars is not visually apparent through the resolution of said choice. The Choice must be verbally announced.

Zuberi, Kharhaz does this adequately represent your current stance?

I also agree with said stance.



Hedge

35
Rules Discussion / Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« on: December 06, 2013, 12:53:36 AM »
All other mages schools are public knowledge, so too should the wizards chosen elemental school.



Hedge

36
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 10, 2013, 10:46:44 PM »
The palmer rule can be used, but it is at the TO's descretion. The only round that it has to be used in is the final round. They have tournaments of 100's players at Gencon and regional kotei. With this many players they use the X-2 method for determining the cut/elimination rounds. They usually choose at some point to use the palmer rule but it usually top 8 at most, and once they use it the rule has to continue for the rest of the rounds of  cut. This was one of the things that I said had been left out. A tournament of that size and larger cuts to top 32 minimum so there will be at least two rounds that winners will have to be selected by some means between the two players or the both get a loss.


This will have to wait until tomorrow for me to continue stuff to do before getting ready for bed.

Hedge


37
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 10, 2013, 06:33:34 PM »
Your last reply didn't really address Ringkichard's points, Hedge. All you said was "It doesn't matter in swiss rounds, but when it does matter a Judge can decide." If we allow in your system for having a Judge decide, I would personally want to know how the judge is basing his decision. I would again want a clear, concise, standardized system for determining the winner. Without that, it would simply be the judge's opinion of who he thinks would have come out on top. That doesn't seem fair to me at all.

Let us imagine a worst case scenario, shall we. Two players playing in the finals end with a legitimately tied game. After listening to their plans, the Judge decides to give the win to Player B. Obviously unhappy with that decision, Player A uses the race card and says that he lost because the Judge was racist and didn't like African Americans.

Not only does the Judge not have a way to defend himself against this accusation, BUT IT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE TRUE! It could very easily be the fact that the judge didn't like the way the losing player looked, or smelled, or acted. Something about him could have just gotten under the Judge's skin, and the only thing the Judge has to fall back on is "Well, I think he would have won" when there is ample chance that the other player could have won as well.

Now, if instead we have a clear system for how the judge would base his decision in place, then there would be no reason to have the concession rule in effect. The person who knows he would win by Judge's decision would never concede.


Ties in Swiss are fine, can we please stop discussing what happens during swiss rounds.

And that is the reason the two players would work toward an agreement because they do not know what the judge will take into consideration, they will decide what is fair on thier own. You guys are simply not understanding that it works. All your conjecture is unfounded. Based on Shadows reports from Gencon he would have only had to make a single descision on one game that weekend, and that is only if the two players could not decide it themselves. This is on his 87% of games finished on time.

If the judge cannot put aside personal issues they should not be a judge in the first place. Again this is only for conventions and a high level member of the rules team would be that judge in most if not all cases.


Then come up with a clear system that is simple, doesn't take more that 2 minutes to do, requires no algebraic functions or a calculator, and does not favor one deck type over another. On my next post I will post a full overview of the tournament format, I will not address any response of the things before this post. I don't think I have fully fleshed out the format. I see that outlining it from beging to end will help some of the parts that are missing or have not been questioned.

Thanks
Hedge



38
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 10, 2013, 04:06:00 PM »
you are not getting it. during swiss rounds ties are acceptable. In cut rounds they are not. In most of your example the situation would not arise or be moot, because it would not apply. But I will reply to each.


1. ties are acceptable in swiss rounds, you could also use this speech to decide on a tie break.
2. if this was during the cut you would discuss your strategy for the next few rounds and it is certain using the standard damage that you and Shadow talk about in your how to play posts that you can find out who is most likely to win. if you couldn't do that a judge would decide.
3. if during swiss you would tie, if during cut present your plans to the judge and he would decide.
4 if during swiss they would tie, neither would make the cut as the would have too many ties.
5. can and does happen with any tie break system, but much less often with this system.
6a Since you are playing against your friend, whom you have played countless time. you both are well aware of where the game is heading and what to expect from your opponent. It should be quite easy to tell who will win.
6b  In the cut records no longer matter as it is single elimination. if it is still in the swiss rounds you would get a tie. being that there has to be a winner the judge would decide If it was in the cut. Also YOu are speculating on the outcome of standing based on a single round. Yes it would stand to reason that Chad could be lower, but you do not know his, yours, or your friends strength of schedule. There are many factors that go into figuring that out. yes he might be paired down, but it would depend greatly on which round your friend has his loss whether he would over take Chad. After looking at it I don't think there is anyway that your friend would pass Chad in this instance. IF you want to discuss  6b Futher please post a seperate thread.

I don't think you are giving yourself and others enough credit. I played at gencon this year and I know some of the players for years from other games and some I had only met this year. Most of the players I interacted with would have had no problem with this rule once they had seen it in action. You can speculate all you want on how it will work out, But I have actually seen it working. Is it the best, no. the best system would be to play the game to the end, but the time is not there. Is it the best for the two players involved, yes it is. as they are the ones that decide thier fate, and can have no misgivings about the method used. Since it would only be used in the cut( Single elimination) and since there has to be a winner if the players can't agree then the judge will decide. Currently with the standard rule that is what is happening now only passively, not actively.


Hedge

39
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 10, 2013, 02:45:14 AM »
And I can not fathom it ever resulting in anything other than a loss for both players in that situation. If time ran out with them both still slugging away at each other, then obviously they both felt they had a chance to win. So why would either of them give that up?

And if that's the case, then why not cut out the arguments and frustration and simply state "If you're not finished when time runs out, it's a loss for both players."

My point was that they wouldn't agree on it. One would use the method that favored themselves, and the other would use a different method to favor themselves.

Basically that is exactly what they are saying, However, the one that is losing has a chance to and should concede. there are double losses in l5r, but they are a rare occurance.


This tie break for MW would only be used during the Cut and Finals, because there has to be a winner. In the normal swiss rounds ties would be acceptable. the talk here is superfluous unless they fix the tournament system as a whole. I mean the format they used at Gencon Was terrible.


The way mage Wars Plays I cannot see a simple and quick tie break system that does not heavily favor one deck type or another.


Hedge

40
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 10, 2013, 02:02:00 AM »
They are too different, as there is over 100 people involved in playing the game, but Ill humor you. Right now the format for football is Sudden death equal possesion overtime. Most coaches would choose that Format anyways. The format I propose has worked for over 15 years in the second largest and longest Running  CCG game. If two people cannot decide on a winner of the match then both deserve a loss.


Who cares what method is used as long as the two agree on it? The method only matter to the two players as it should. Since a poor one is better than none At all, this one should suffice since you seem to think poorly of it.


Hedge

41
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 10, 2013, 01:16:26 AM »
Maybe not when it is obvious, but even a slim chance is still a chance and I do think it would be doing myself a disservice if I were to concede when I had a chance of winning. If I haven't conceded by the time the end of the round is called, I see no reason why I would concede after time was called. Obviously I felt there was still a chance for me to win because we were still slugging it out.

I'm fine with allowing people to concede before time is called, but trying to force someone to concede after the fact does not sit well with me and I would never do it. To me, that is like having a tied Super Bowl game and the Ref tells the coaches that instead of going into over time, one of them has to concede or nobody wins the Super Bowl that year. It makes no sense and would piss a lot of people off.


Your super bowl refrence really isn't applicable. They have a Simple and definite way to end the game if normal play time ends in a tie.  WE are looking for one. Would it be better if I just didn't use the word Concede.


When time is called the players decide what method they will use to decide the Winner. they use the methed of choice and the winner is decided.


Better?


Hedge

42
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 09, 2013, 11:35:10 PM »
there are very few instances in mage wars where you can turn the game around past round 10 unless it is very close. I only had one game art gencon that came down to initiative.  the rest were clearly decided long before the game finished. And it will be that way most of the time.  You must decide a victor when time is called, at which time someone must agree to concede. unless there is an official method that denotes the victor. currently all the proposed methods suck.  Until they can find one that doesn't suck, letting the players agree on the proposed method is best. Again at that point both players agreed that one of them will concede. this method can be applied no matter the deck types used or how close the game is.


@homelessjoe   while what you talk about is part of it. this is mainly when time is called and there it's no more time left to play.



Hedge

43
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 09, 2013, 05:49:52 PM »
I didn't realize you knew me so well.

But I thought we were making arguments about tiebreakers?

we are. An honorable and sportsmanlike  person would concede. You said you would never concede and always take the double loss, that shows that you have poor sportsmanship and inturn possibly no honor. Perhaps I went a bit too far, but at the time it was all I could think of to match the example of conduct. sportsmanship or lack thereof is a better term. You should always play with good sportsmanship even, and especially, during tie break instances. Sportsmanship is what makes a tournament system function all the way through each match and the tie breaks. The point about conceding is the two players can choose the method that decides the match as long as both agree to the method. Since whatever method is used it is outside the course of the tournament structure and the one that the method does not grant victory to must concede the match.


It may be splitting hairs, but it is conceivable to most that when you agree to use a different method to decide the match that each of you agree to concede if you lose to the method of choice.



Hedge

44
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 08, 2013, 02:52:33 PM »
In tournament play, if a loss and a draw are the same, I would never concede a drawn game just to avoid a loss for my opponent, regardless of how far behind I was. He wants to win, he has to kill me. (By the same token, I would rather lose than accept a pitty concession.)

A rule that makes concessions common opens the door wide to collusion.

Then you sir, have no Honor.



Hedge

45
League / Tournament Play / Re: Suggested Rule change for cons
« on: November 08, 2013, 12:09:25 PM »
In Swiss Tournament play the Win-loss-Draw tracking is best, with a tie break system for the cut to top 8 or 16 depending on attendance. However, since the game is set in an Arena of Dueling mages you could use the L5R method that if one player does not concede defeat at the end of the round it is a double loss. Since one mage could not kill the other both were killed. Because I know my spellbook well enough  to know if there is any chance of me winning or not after 10 rounds of play.



Hedge

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