Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: timer000 on June 26, 2013, 11:32:22 AM
-
My friend play a priest with a lot of Hand of Bimshallas & ToL
He use "wall of pikes"to stop me attacking TOL at turn 2
and using "force push" to push me &my creature back to the "Wall of pike" again &again(only by paying 3 mana).
My creature always been dazed or stun.It make me harder to destory ToL.
Then he start to summon more Hob and knights.
Finally I destory the TOL by spending my a lot of mana & turns.
But he summon another "TOL" only by paying 9 mana= =
May someone tell me how to handle this condition???
Thanks
-
What mage are you playing and what basic strategy are you hoping to implement? You're being so non-specific that I can't really answer you in any kind of detail.
The first thing that comes to mind is summon more mid sized creatures, but there may be other strong options. For example, a Steelclaw Pet is vulnerable to Daze/Stun lock, but 4 Timber Wolves aren't nearly as impressed by Daze/Stun lock plays. Angel of Light is immune, so a Priest/Priestess can respond with her.
Also, you don't necessarily need to kill ToL. If you want to destroy ToL, Ballistae will be a strong option for that once they come out. Right now, fire attacks are probably your best bet, although Dark Pact Slayers/Brogan can do a lot of damage with their high Piercing attacks.
As for Wall of Pikes, pull your opponent out of them. Then they'll have to Teleport or run back through them to get away from you.
-
stun lock is anti solo/duo aggro builds. but the early damage of tol also makes it good against lvl 1 swarm creatures most of the time it will 1 hit fox and other lvl1 creatures.
my most recent comp set up was tol so I am preemptively looking for ways to counter it. here is what I have.
solo/duo agro:
1. don't bother with deflection bracers they don't stop ranged. pack 1-4 cobra reflexes enough for your mage and your big creature.
2. choose a creature with ranged dodge (I think the forest shadow, not sure)
3.avoid non living at all times, obvious
4. get mage closer to you with your choice of teleport/force then wall the temple of light off. the temple can kill most walls in 2-3 turns buy that should be enough to really damage her.
5. get a creature with intercept and give it a ranged defence see 1
6. a well placed deadeye can take free shots at tol without being hit by bit
-
I think the key problem here is that you're focusing on the temples. Focus on the opposing mage instead. Temples aren't going to kill you nearly as fast as attack spells and creatures will.
It would also be helpful to know what mage you're playing and which creatures you're using.
The best advice I can give with that description is:
1. Don't worry about the temple. Attack the opposing mage.
2. Use creatures with flying.
-
Using a Wall of Stone/Steel will block the ToL while you work on the other temples. You can also use Chain Lightning to get multiple attacks on the temples. Depending on the number of other temples he is running you might be able to ignore the ToL and the Hands, but for the most part you just have to see what works for you. Just because one strat will work against someone playing temples, doesn't mean everyone plays them the same way. Hope this helps.
-
keep in mind when it comes to the tol itself it ranges from 70% efficiency (only tol, asyra and daenbreaker) to 86% (1 tol and 6 hands) compared to an extrapolation of creature values on lvl (because there is no lvl 8 creature). there are only 28 combinations when you consider the epic/legendary restrictions.
as a general rule count the number of temples and assume the tower is a ranged creature of 3/4 that lvl (in attack, defence and mana cost).
so if there are 4 temples (tol and 3 hands aren't unheard of). don't spend any more effort as you would against a lvl 3 creature.
also should mention if you run some form of purify (the wand of healing or the incantation/mage wand). any lvl 3 creature should kill tower in 2-3 turns
-
How do you guys place a wall of stone to block LOS if the ToL is placed like this:
You
|
|
V
Z Z Z Z
Z Z T Z
Z Z Z Z
^
|
|
Priestess
Placing a single wall blocks a maximum of 2 Zones, and it does not block ANY zone that holds other temples (asyra or Hands)
Also to those who wants to spend 6 mana on teleport (getting priest to enemy side of wall) and 7 mana on (a single i assume) wall of stone which totals 13 mana.... how do you after spending 2 actions get that BIG attack off that is supposedly going to punish the priestess for her temple build?
Getting both wall and teleport off in 1 turn requires QC and action marker from mage which in returns give the priestess the option to move (hindered i guess) 1 zone away so a possible grizzly wont get a full action attack off. Plus She will have saved her Hands to buff her with 3 armor most likely so a quick attack will average 3-4 damage depending on what big creature ur using.
-
I've played against several "temple builds" and have never lost to them, so they can't be overpowered because I'm pretty new to the game and not that good. :)
Basically I ignore HoS, I do spend resources killing ToL though. Once ToL is dead then I just send everything I have at the enemy mage. Maybe I am getting lucky but so far I've never lost a game yet.
As far as how to kill it in the least amount of turns and least investment so you aren't wasting valuable momentum on it. Depending on the mage you are using I have used hurl boulder, lightning or Force Hammers against it to take advantage of the +2 conjuration. The Temple of Light falls and crumbles pretty quickly 1-2 turns and it is out of your life.
You can ignore the wall of pikes since it doesn't really do much to a flying creatures, so you can either use flyers or give non flyers flying with eagle wings or send a few creatures at it and use fast and get around the wall. That thing can only stun ONE creature so it isn't like it can stop 4 creatures plus a forcehammer coming at it.
It's a great card but not overpowered, there are so many ways around it or to deal with it.
-
force orb and reflex boots are other options to avoid ranged attacks.
-
I think "daze" will make our attack spell miss.
Using attack spell maybe is not a good choice..@@
-
I think "daze" will make our attack spell miss.
Using attack spell maybe is not a good choice..@@
Assuming the temple attack actually dazes and assuming you don't have initiative. And even then, there are many, many ways around it, and other posters have already mentioned them.
-
there really hasn't been a good description of how to affectively deal with temples. you see posts of people saying "temples aren't op I can beat them easy" yet nobody has posted exactly what to do against them. when you consider most temple builds have format 2 moves that look very similar to this
1, tol+toa
2, hob+hob.
I would like to see an effective counter that beginner players can use
-
If your opponent is playing Hand+Hand on one of his creatures, the easy reply is Bear Strength on one of yours.
You're up an action and 5 mana, and your creatures are equally pumped. Kill his creature, and use the extra action and your remaining mana to kill one of the hands. Repeat.
I mean, it's not like this is a tactically hopeless, foregone conclusion here.
Now, I've been trying to argue that we should do more experiments, because we're long on hypotheses but short on results.
-
I'm long on money but short on time.
Otherwise I'd be trialling all sorts of malarkey with various builds.
-
For a Few Big strategy (like Wizard), spend 10 spell points on Samandriel. If you start off going second (or duck a 1 in 6 stun in turn 1), you summon her NC turn 2 and attack ToL (assuming in FC) on turn 3. The rules even state you can only guard creatures from flyers (not conjurations) so ToL is soon doomed from the Light Immune Flyer (as the priestess has over-committed to Temples to contest in the air). If a card forces all others to include a specific creature, the designers should errata ToL to Epic at least.
The only other plausible anti-ToL strategies I can think of are
> walls blocking LOS while assembling a small army 1 away
> creatures with ranged defence (ideally inherent not buffs)
As for attacking the Hands bolstering it, if you can't kill the ToL in this 1 round of attacks but can reliably kill an adjacent HoB, I see value in culling the boosting HoB, especially if powered by Rajan's Fury. But generally focus on the ToL threat.
I do think the designers may have goofed by not making ToL Epic as this creates a very dull attrition strategy as opponent over-commit resources to destroy each successive ToL hence the priestess should win the battle of attrition by default. The combination with cheap HoB is what makes ToL far too simple and strong.
If the designers don't errata it (no shame to discover unforeseen overpowered cards in games like this), I hope future expansions feature cards that nerf it (Steel Wall helps).
-
"If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker."
Not sure which part of the rules you're reading, but guards do protect conjurations.
Anyway, you just cannot make sweeping generalization like "oh, Priestess has a ToL, ergo she wins the attrition war." ToL is far down on the list of why the Priestess makes for a good defensive mage. If you would have said "her easy access to powerful healing, especially Lay Hands" or "her ability to gain a lot of life at no cost," maybe we could have a discussion about that. But this hype around Temple of Light is just getting old at this point, and has little basis in reality.
-
Temple is overpowered but there are not many people who have enough cards to run 3xToL and 6xHoBS. Destroying the temple is never efficient unless your opponent doesn't have additional temples in his deck. Temple's armor and HP are such that it almost always costs more mana and actions to destroy a temple than it does for him to re-cast a new one.
Keep in mind that a strong Temple build doesn't rely on ToL to kill you. HoBS plus melee deals most of the damage, while ToL keeps your biggest creature (or Mage) dazed and inflicts moderate damage.
The most successful anti-temple strategies I have seen are one of these two:
1) Tunnel-vision attack the enemy mage and hope that she dies before you do.
2) Take the fight somewhere out of range of ToL. This depends on ToL placement, as a middle-square position will cover 10 out of 12 zones on the board. A non-middle square position will leave you enough room to fight away from ToL.
-
Comparatively, there are much more efficient ways of giving melee dice, armor, and life than Hands. It's only when you are playing defensively that hands actually pull their weight, because otherwise, I'd much rather have a Bear Strength, Rhino Hide, or Bull Endurance.
Or, of course, your opponent is playing sub-optimally, like what happened at Origins. But at that point, everything is free game.
-
^Completely agree.
ToL Builds are not over powered unless you as the defending player do not go on the aggressive as soon as you see them trying to build temples. Going aggressive is the best strategy against the the temple decks as it forces the opponent to choose between building and dying or switching their plan completely.
-
^Completely agree.
ToL Builds are not over powered unless you as the defending player do not go on the aggressive as soon as you see them trying to build temples. Going aggressive is the best strategy against the the temple decks as it forces the opponent to choose between building and dying or switching their plan completely.
I couldn't agree more with your statement that ToL builds are not overpowered. However, I'm not sure that ratcheting up the aggression is the answer to every problem. It might be that some builds don't have enough firepower to overcome another builds defenses. You need to first assess your chances of successfully overpowering the priestesses defenses. Remember, that is exactly what builds like the Lord of terror want to do and she handles them pretty well. It might be, that you need to come up with a more disciplined strategy that systematically neutralizes the ToL strategy.
-
Comparatively, there are much more efficient ways of giving melee dice, armor, and life than Hands. It's only when you are playing defensively that hands actually pull their weight, because otherwise, I'd much rather have a Bear Strength, Rhino Hide, or Bull Endurance.
Or, of course, your opponent is playing sub-optimally, like what happened at Origins. But at that point, everything is free game.
This is not true. 2x Bear strength would be twice as mana efficient as 4x HoBS except that you cannot stack 2 bear strengths. If for whatever reason your mage is unable to attack for a round, 2 bear strengths on your mage are useless that round, while 4 HoBS can add armor or healing instead.
Please keep in mind that 100% of the Origins builds were super aggressive agro. Aggro is not a counter to the temple/hand build. In fact, Hand strat was designed specifically to counter other agro builds, and it performs very well in that role.
-
Comparatively, there are much more efficient ways of giving melee dice, armor, and life than Hands. It's only when you are playing defensively that hands actually pull their weight, because otherwise, I'd much rather have a Bear Strength, Rhino Hide, or Bull Endurance.
Or, of course, your opponent is playing sub-optimally, like what happened at Origins. But at that point, everything is free game.
1. This is not true. 2x Bear strength would be twice as mana efficient as 4x HoBS except that you cannot stack 2 bear strengths. If for whatever reason your mage is unable to attack for a round, 2 bear strengths on your mage are useless that round, while 4 HoBS can add armor or healing instead.
2. Please keep in mind that 100% of the Origins builds were super aggressive agro. Aggro is not a counter to the temple/hand build. In fact, Hand strat was designed specifically to counter other agro builds, and it performs very well in that role.
1. Other than the fact that 1 Bear Strength is more efficient mana and action-wise than 2 Hands, this entire point is totally irrelevant because there are many ways of increasing you dice count after Bear Strength is down, such as Power Strike, Marked for Death, Battle Fury..the list goes on.
The only way your logic works would be if Bear Strength was the only card outside of Hands that can increase dice count...but if you have the game, you immediately know that that isn't true.
And you're highly over-exaggerating Hand's utility. A smart player is going to save the QC Bear Strength for a creature that can assuredly get value from it, just like with the Hand before an activation and it's not like Hand is always getting you value. You might be left with no good choice and it goes to waste. I don't see your point.
2. I'm sorry, but If you think that playing 4-6 Hands, which is as much or more mana (20-30!!) than some of the most powerful threats in the game, somehow counters aggro, your understanding of aggro strategies is fundamentally flawed. Your battle report about Origins in which you describe how you played against the temple build reinforces my assertion, because you spent 18 playing a Hellion and an Imp, neither of which are aggro creatures at all, and that's only what I know about.
Maybe if you had summoned Adramelech and two Dark Pact Slayers and flung attack spells all game and then failed to beat that build I'd be concerned. But obviously, that's not the case, nor would it be, nor has it been in my experience, and the playtesters (y'know, the people responsible for balancing the game) see the same results as I do.
-
For us to see what was the optimal line of play we need the full list Pious played. Looking back in hind site will do nobody any good until we get all the data.
-
"If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker."
Not sure which part of the rules you're reading, but guards do protect conjurations.
Anyway, you just cannot make sweeping generalization like "oh, Priestess has a ToL, ergo she wins the attrition war." ToL is far down on the list of why the Priestess makes for a good defensive mage. If you would have said "her easy access to powerful healing, especially Lay Hands" or "her ability to gain a lot of life at no cost," maybe we could have a discussion about that. But this hype around Temple of Light is just getting old at this point, and has little basis in reality.
It's under "Ignoring Guards" sidebar (p29), the exceptions to the rule that you quote:
"Guards affect a flying creature when it makes a melee attack, but only if it is attacking a non-Flying CREATURE in the guard's zone."
The game is very precise in its terminology and if it meant for you to be able to protect Conjurations, it would have said "Objects" instead.
I viewed this rule as an (much-needed) advantage to paying the cost-premium of Flyers and an (equally much needed) disadvantage to relying on guarding key conjurations.
Hence why non-Warlocks having Samandriel in their spell book is an elegant solution to suspected ToL + HoB (and which Priestess won't run them?).
-
Sorry to resuscitate this old chestnut: I was just proffering my own solutions to ToL + HoB which was asked by the previous poster who was saying "nobody actually gives specific strategies to combat ToL, just generic dismissal that it isn't overpowered."
As for where I stand on this, I think ToL can be circumvented by experienced or even tactics-savvy players who have strategised for that contingency with sideboard cards in their toolbox.
Even then, it becomes a bit too much of a lottery with the ToL effect die and any defence die you adopt to counter it: let's be honest, the d12 is the big random element in the game. Being hit by that stun so early in the game is too much of a tempo loss when Temple Crawl is being piloted well.
However, the existence of Temple of Light damages the game because it is instantly PERCEIVED by new players (like my local meta where I remain unbeaten as latecomer learner) as overpowered. If players are willing to add the word Epic to ToL and are still be happy to play Priestess, then surely there is no harm in such an errata?
New players are saddened when they see what seems to be a broken card because
(a) it costs so much more to than 9 mana to destroy an 8/3 ToL, only for another to then spring up; l this not a "generalised" but a specific example of why the Priestess adopting this strategy should win a war of resource attrition. As that strategy is so dull, making it Epic solves this and improves the game.
(b) it is (like HoB) a NON-ACTION: so it's like having a second Quickcast marker that hits 10/12 squares with 4 dice daze/stun no immunities except 1 creature. The ability to string extra free actions before or after to get a longer sequence of effects is huge. Why did they make it a non-action?
ToL (with cheap HoB support) is a turn-off when trying to convert new players to commit to this great game because of PERCEPTION. Ergo it is bad for the game without an errata,
My (unsatisfactory) solutions are:
> (going first) sprint NC then QC Battle Forge FC to deny that key zone
> (going second) sprint NC then QC blocking wall, turn 2 cast Samandriel
As a warlock playing second, I would cast Vampiress instead as she can fly over the wall and bypass guards to attack ToL for 1 mana.
But the very fact that I have specifically come up with openings against Priestess because of 1 card that I fear, that is an indication that ToL seems overpowered to new players who will be put off by the game.
Hey, what other card has created so much feeling and so much debate? Something is wrong here, if only being a turn-off for recruiting fresh blood, and to for one poster to indirectly call Piousflea (a major turnament winner) a poor player because he did not cope with it at the Origins final (albeit an unlucky early stun) is an indication of how flawed the "not overpowered" camp arguments are.
Let's be clear: I am only proposing that Temple of Light becomes Epic like Mordok's Obelisk and Suppression Orb which are game defining conjurations. This will prevent the EXTREMELY DULL attrition strategy that any Priestess with access to 4 copies of ToL and 6 copies of HoB (as well as aforementioned Epics against Swarm) should build currently. When there's an optimal build for 1 mage, it causes all other mages to compulsory toolbox against it and 1 card is a turn-off for new players because it (alone in Mage Wars) stinks of "buy more to become more powerful so wallet buys win rate", then there is a problem gentlemen.
I will also add that, once ToL is errata'd Epic, there is no HoB problem. I appreciate that Arcane Wonders is a business and it is fine for them to cater to obsessives who want 6 copies of it (atking into account their fragility to be one-shotted by buffed Bigs). HoB is not the luck-orientated life-sapping Laser that ToL is.
I really hope designers read this forum and heed arguments for an Epic errata. As I am very new to the game (very experienced at others including its influences) but I really LOVE this FUN game, a great balance between intuitive simplicity, tactical depth and strategic planning, with randomness to test adaptability and anticipating opponent moves for bluffing. Well done, designers, on a great game. While over-costed cards will just become obsolete and under-costed cards can be nerfed in future expansions (e.g. Dispelling Wand vs. Bear Strength etc), I see no other solution for ToL except to make it Epic so that the strategy can't over-focus as it relies on 1 copy. There is no shame in making that 1 small errata, changing ToL Unique to Epic.
-
@ deckbuilder:
• Protect the Zone: If a creature is in a zone with one
or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards
he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a
melee attack against any object without a guard marker
The wording for flying creatures is to explain that flying may melee attack flying even though there is guards.
It cannot attack conjurations if there is enemy guards in the zone.
-
Deckbuilder is right. ToL should be made epic.
-
For us to see what was the optimal line of play we need the full list Pious played. Looking back in hind site will do nobody any good until we get all the data.
I sincerely doubt we're going to get all the data. And what data we already have access to indicates 18 wasted mana. You don't have to be an exceptional MW player to know that wasting 18 mana will easily lose you the game.
-
I have yet to hear a legitimate reason as to why ToL is OP. Because new players perceive it to be, is not a valid concern. If you are introducing someone new to the game don't use ToL until you think they can handle it.
As to other cards beginners perceive as OP, how about Battle Fury. Imagine you're playing your first game. You have played 8 - 10 turns. Sure you are down to 14 life on your mage, but you actually got your opponent down to 22 life. This is a lot of fun, we got a lot of back and forth action going. You may be down but you're holding your own, then your opponent pulls out BF and deals 14 damage before you even new you were in danger of losing to a single mage activation. Yeah, that's great for the game. Lets nerf BF too. I have a better idea, lets not. Why don't we give people a chance to learn the intracies of the game. Mage Wars is a complex game with a steep learning curve. That is a positive in my book and I am sure it may be a negative for others. Nerfing and banning cards is always a negative thing even when it is necessary, which it is not in this case.
Two of the three big tournaments were won by Warlocks ergo the warlock is OP. He must be, he wins 66% of the tournaments. It is obvious he is not, we don't have enough data to support that assertion yet. Or maybe he is just really popular and his winning percentage can be attributed to the number of people playing warlocks.
The reason I don't give specific suggestions to countering ToL is because of the very nature of MW. Mage Wars is not Magic the Gathering. There are no Day of Judgement cards to reset the game or swing it in your favor. Even if a player has a big turn it is not because of a single powerful card. It is because of the decisions he made in previous turns that put him in a situation to benefit from a big turn. You win based on your strategy(s), the tactics you employ to implement your strategies, and your ability to adapt when your opponent's strategy is dominant. If the ToL has you down your solution depends on your mage, the cards you have in your spellbook (which determines the type of counter strategies you can implement), the state of the game at the moment, and your ability to second guess your opponent. Mage Wars is a game where you have many choices to make. That means you have a lot of chances to screw up and a lot of chances to look like a genius. If you ever run into a strategy you weren't prepared for it could easily feel like your opponent is using broken cards. For me to offer specific advice I would need to be looking over your shoulder as the game unfolds and see what choices you have before you.
-
Here is some specific advice.
Don't wear white underpants.
More people in car crashes wear white undergarments than any other colour. Ergo wearing white undergarments is more likely to cause you to be involved in a car crash.
-
For us to see what was the optimal line of play we need the full list Pious played. Looking back in hind site will do nobody any good until we get all the data.
I sincerely doubt we're going to get all the data. And what data we already have access to indicates 18 wasted mana. You don't have to be an exceptional MW player to know that wasting 18 mana will easily lose you the game.
::) :-X
No comment
-
@ Reddawan and Jacksmack
I am going to post this in the rules section of this Forum and BGG. Because my interpretation of the p29 sidebar is that Flyers (Elusive, Retrained/Incapacitated/Pest Guards) are the exception to the generic Protect the Zone Guard rule. And the exception to the Flyer exception is when it is attacking a ground creature. I have read the "Protect the Zone" paragraph and the "Ignoring Guards" sidebar and there is no doubt that Flyers attacking ground creatures is the exception to the exception as worded in the rules.
Is there a FAQ on this? I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to clear this up and I will readily accept a FAQ that goes against my interpretation. I don't want to be a literal rules lawyer but MW is incredibly precise in its wording (e.g. decoy states "zone or object", allowing it to be cast on enchants or equipment for when we get future enchants that can attach to these cards). That is why I have assumed that the reference to creature in the sidebar means that attacking conjurations is not an exception to the Flyer exception.
This could just be ambiguous wording that a FAQ will clarify (this FAQ could also add that ToL is Epic :)!). But this thread on ToL is not the right place to debate this rule. Which surely must have been picked up already?
-
For us to see what was the optimal line of play we need the full list Pious played. Looking back in hind site will do nobody any good until we get all the data.
I sincerely doubt we're going to get all the data. And what data we already have access to indicates 18 wasted mana. You don't have to be an exceptional MW player to know that wasting 18 mana will easily lose you the game.
::) :-X
No comment
You don't fool me Shadow. I see through your illusory manipulations! 8)
-
Here is some specific advice.
Don't wear white underpants.
More people in car crashes wear white undergarments than any other colour. Ergo wearing white undergarments is more likely to cause you to be involved in a car crash.
Oh Mr G, you disappoint me, to resort to that old chestnut, the "correlation is not causality" fallacy, albeit in jest... As a fellow Brit, I am ashamed :). You should be above such cheap sophistry :)
I hypothesise the wealthier demographic of car crash involvement (more likely to be car owners) and white underpants wearers (more likely to afford model-style Calvin Kleins with a short lifespan due to white colour) may be a contributing factor in your example.
Still, it's similar to the reason I give to myself when I try to justify why I haven't learnt to swim or drive yet (where the frequency of exposure to the hazardous activity is what drives the low fatalities of non-swimmers and non-drivers).
I shall download OCTGN soon and hunt you down for a game. The gauntlet was thrown by you, good sir, and you shall not find me easy prey, I assure you...
-
Bring it on Mr DeckBuilder.
My Calvin Kleins are like a shield of steel.
Black, naturally.
-
@Tacullu64
I have read several of your posts and I respect your obvious experience and skill at the game. Please don't take this post disagreeing with you as disrespectful. It does not change the high regard I have for your knowledge and skill at this game.
You make a valid point that whether a card makes the game appealing to new players should not be a contributing factor. Everyone has their own preference on how accessible or exclusive they would like the game to be.
However, your subsequent dismissal of players who can't cope with the steep learning curve of the game (really? it's one of the most intuitive games I've ever played; anyone who plays D&D 4E, Magic & Chess will pick it up easily) tells me you based lack of appeal due to a perception of complexity. It seems you misunderstand my reasons why I believe ToL is a turn-off for potential new recruits.
ToL is not complex. Playing ToL moderately well is relatively straight-forward. I am not taking anything away from the Origins winner who beat skilled opponents with different aggro builds; that win undoubtedly took great skill (but also the ability to spot a gap in the meta). But any newcomer can take the 1 Core set's 4 temples, 2 knights, 2 archers, 2 mage wings, 2 hawkeye, 1 bow, 2 poison gas, 1 orb, 1 obelisk and make a simple ranged fortress based on a NC ToL that hits any square, mana denial vs. corner swarm (orb, obelisk) etc. Sacred ground and Mokhtari further boost a stationary ranged fortress strategy. I am sure Warlord goodies in the expansion improve this. It is not a complex idea to build your fortress empire. It is in fact common for new players to turtle like that. Like Occam's Razor, the simplicity of ToL is what makes it so good: the simpler the strategy, the less prone to error during execution.
A complex strategy would be mana denial; winning by Force Hold on a mage who spent all 5 Dispels (on Essence Drains and Pacifies on his creatures) while Wand of Drain Power hits him each Early QC at range 2 (Mana Siphon in play), watching him slowly die to Pestilence while you wear Regrowth Belt, achieving the satisfying semi-hard lock playing almost creatureless mana denial, that is a cerebral complex strategy. But ToL? No, it's so obvious: "I've got a laser with X dice + daze/stun and I'm gonna guard it with the best guards whilst hitting you". Oh, what a subtle strategy!
You obviously misunderstood why I think ToL puts off new players hence is bad for the game unless errata'd to Epic. Notice that I did not ask for a banning or nerf its power. I only ask for it to be turned Epic. And the reason is simply this: by allowing multiple copies, you are telling new players: "this is a game like Legacy Magic where you can simply spend more money to get 4 copies of ToL and 6 copies of HoB for an over-powered spell book, where your win rate is influenced by your spend." Sending new players that message, when they have probably been burnt bad by the Magic bug (and probably subscribe to LCGs like Netrunner) is a turn-off for those players. That is one reason why they should turn ToL Epic: a message to potential new players that this is a not a game where max. copies is the key.
The Core set is amazingly generous. As someone with 3 copies of Netrunner Core set and 3 copies of Game of Thrones Core, I was delighted that there were so few cards where I wanted more copies. Probably 2 Core is sufficient to create 4 very nice balanced spell books.
So it's a shame they have 2 obvious cards (ToL and HoB) where any idiot will say: "oh wish I had max, of these". And the main problem is ToL as the vanguard attack card (along with multiple HoB pumped Priestess with Asrya Staff & Ring). I can live with 6 HoB, they can each be culled in 1 round. Having to kill 4 copies of knights-guarded ToL would be too much. It is a bad sign when I feel forced to include Samandriel in my non-warlock spell books.
So the first reason ToL should be Epic is because currently it is turning the game into a wallet-spending exercise, a turn-off for many potential new players. This may be deliberate by Arcane Wonders (I very much doubt it, they seem to be a very nice independent) but if so, it would be short-sighted: more players is better than fewer players spending more on average. Simple marketing principles: higher penetration of a market is better than higher average purchase when total spend is equal in both cases. Because initial conversion is all that matters: repeat purchase is easy once they are hooked.
My second reason why I believe ToL should be made Epic is simple: keeping it at multiple copies promotes a very dull attrition strategy.
Initially, I was taken aback by a lack of "counter spell" denial control. Yes, you can force the opponent to Decoy you to trigger your Nullify before he Dispels/Dissolves. While Unavoidable attacks waste Block or Reverse Attack. Soon, you will have to Decoy the Nullify then Dispel an "Armour Protection" enchantment before you can Dissolve his equipment. But these "onion peel" layers of protection only provides delay to the inevitable. There is no hard counter in Mage Wars, just delay like Jinx. I concluded they did this because denial control is dull. They want to empower players, not dis-empower them. They want Regrowth to be the counter to Ghoul Rot, saving precious Dispels for when you have no other counter. It's similar to Arabian Nights where duelling mages transform into beasts superior to the opponent's beast form, creating a circle when mouse beats elephant. In Arabian Nights mage duels, there is no counter spells, just adaption to have the advantage over the opponent who will then counter-adapt etc. It's a very dynamic changing rock-paper-scissors duel because any direct counter spell would be so... dull.
That is what 4 ToL and 6 HoB attrition strategy is: it's a dull, dull, dull strategy where opponent must overspend heavity to remove each guarded ToL. It is not the cerebral puzzle that is mana denial, which is an "acquired taste" experience I would not foist on new players (or dare to use against the best players). It is just "spamming temples and knights". Wow, what subtlety. The designers (wisely) removed hard counter denial control from the game on grounds that it is dull to be constantly frustrated, I am surprised the same enlightened designers have promoted the dullest of dull strategies: temples attrition win.
The solution is simple: MAKE TEMPLE OF LIGHT EPIC. This does not reduce the power of Temple of Light, just its persistence. Imagine if current Epic conjurations were Unique instead! But thankfully there is only 1 Epic Obelisk or Orb so the Wizard better guard it with a Hydra. A wizard can't solely focus on his conjurations when they are Epic. The same should apply for ToL. It is a strong play (with correct support) but once removed, that should be it. Because otherwise you are promoting dull dull attrition where the >9 mana cost of removing ToL makes it an almost inevitable dull ground out win for the Priestess with powers to support this.
I also don't buy into the "I can't give you specific counter strategies" argument. Half the battle is won by a wise choice of spells in your book. You need cards for contingency occasions (Purify vs. Gorgon). I have given some very obvious counters that I use. Yes, you need to know the board situation. A Swarm is obviously best but a wise Priestess will have counters for this with Orb & Obelisk. If going Few Big, you need Cobra Reflexes, maybe Mongoose to bypass those Knight Guards. These are just generic obvious counters. Whatever spell book you build, you must address the question: what do I do when facing a Priestess (who all have ToL and HoB support as must haves, whether fortress or aggro melee)? You need to plan for ToL with specific counter strategies before you even sit down for a game. So obviously your card choices are specific strategies that can be divulged.
There is no harm done to the game in making ToL Epic, only benefits by removing the stink of "wallet wins" that put off potential fresh blood and long drawn-out attrition games that deplete enjoyment. Give a melee Priestess the aggro HoB-pumped build, backed by an Epic ToL. That is enough power. But please don't encourage her to bore you to attrition death with max copies of those 2 temples. That would be truly evil.
-
@ deckbuilder
No offense was given or taken. I wouldn't visit Internet forums if I was that easily offended.
You are correct in that I misinterpreted your concerns about ToL and new players. My apologies.
I was not dismissing players who couldn't cope with the steep learning curve. My intention was to illustrate Mage Wars requires many more tactical decisions than many other card based games and that there isn't a DoJ style of card to save the day. You might be required to make more decisions in a single turn in the middle of a game of MW than you do in an entire game of MtG. If your opponent builds an advantage in the first 4 turns of the game it might be wise to consider a 3 or 4 turn counter strategy instead of a one turn silver bullet.
You are correct that the rules of the game are fairly intuitive, but the gameplay and interaction between players can get pretty complex. It wasn't my intent to indicate playing the ToL strategy was difficult, but that countering it can be for some builds and strategies, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. I was also trying to point out that different mages/builds could (should?) employ different methods against the ToL builds depending on their individual strengths.
I must confess I like attrition builds. They are not boring to me as long as there is enough interaction between the players. I understand that some people don't like that style of play, but some do.
A simpler solution than making temple of light epic to avoid wallet wins would be to put 3 copies in a future expansion.
-
Laser-Turtle is still a turtle.
Just turbo in and drop something big; supported by any of the following: Walls (while you deal with BimShalla); Block Enchant (while you deal with BimShalla); Force Hammer (may 1-shot BimShalla); Wand of Healing (removes conditions). Long story short: Kill the BimShalla(s) ASAP!
If you kill all 6 BimShalla, leaving a piddly little TOL to "tickle stun" you and your big... their deck has now overpaid in buildpoints for any extra TOL they cannot possible cast.
you can urinate on it after you murder their mage. Port-a-potty of Light.
Not Overpowered.