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Author Topic: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions  (Read 40687 times)

Tacullu64

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2013, 03:49:41 PM »
The point you are making is that ToL is good, and against better players, it may have some effect, but in the long run, it doesn't. There are just too many ways around it. And as far as Hands go, they are good. So what? They won't win you the game, not even with ToL. And having 4 ToLs in your build because they are just so good doesn't mean I'm going to strike them. You stun me? That's okay, I can still kill you. You daze me? A little trickier, but still not a bad thing overall.

Dependence on other cards instead of the mage is what loses games.

I'm not sure subjectively calling builds "stupidly aggressive" is the way to go about things either.

And how was it relevant? There were 14 players in the main event. If you are saying 14 players will tell you the meta, then I'm going to have to have you look up "relevant" in the dictionary. Sure, it may give you some insight as to what some people play, but the numbers just are not there to indicate what is really good and what is really bad.


QFT. Playtester tells it how it is.

Not all playtesters have it stated on their profile, or truly understand the implications of what is trying to be accomplished. There is more going on then a simple card nerf and the fact that this is being discussed in the open forums shows that some people don't really understand the current situation and how it should have been handled.

I think the fact that this is being discussed this much in the open forums is because this is the type of topic that people have strong feelings about, on both sides of the topic. If, after Bashcon, someone had said that a particular card in the Lord of terror was overpowered or broken it would've received the same kind of attention the HoBS is now. After the next tournament when a new card is labeled as 0P it will be in the spotlight receiving the same kind of attention HoBS is now.

This is the kind of topic you see in every customizable card game that has tournaments. Topics like this flourish because people have strong opinions one way or the other, and they will continue to do so as long as this is the case. There really isn't anything wrong with this as long as things don't get too heated or crazy. I personally occasionally weary of these topics because they seem so common. As far as I can remember this is the only topic of its kind in mage wars so it hasn't gotten boring yet.

The Dude

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2013, 03:50:19 PM »
I think what he is saying is that the implications HoBS and ToL impose on the growth of new players is hindering to the point of frustration and a sense of defeat. This can be debilitating to a game, especially one so new in it's development. What is interesting is what new players will do with these losses to a so called "oppressive" card. It seems that players that do not have a set strategy that they have read about or tried often find new ways to tackle a problem. This leads to branching strategies, and ultimately a much deeper meta game.

That being said, the hurdle ToL imposes on new players is great, but reachable. I don't think a nerfing is in order at all, as that will hurt the game much more than it would help it.

I don't appreciate the implication of lack of understanding because I have a lack of sympathy for the hurdle this card creates. I think the real problem lies in the lack of strategies given help new players understand the game, rather then throwing them in the fire. Because it is this fire that let's players believe that cards are oppressive and need to be nerfed. In a game such as this where player and playtester feedback is so important, I think giving players the push they need through new strategic content will open more doors in the long run than reconstruction of cards themselves.

And as far as discussing this sort of thing in "open" forums, I think everyone's say is rather important on the matter. Democratic feedback is the only way designers will know what to do without shutting players out. We've seen many bannings/errata of cards in other games history, but why?  In recent years, it has been because of this "unfun" factor the card imposes on new players. Mage Wars by mechanics alone implies seeking more than one strategy is available to handle a problem.

As this is a game of very little luck, and very high strategy, there is already a high threshold that players have to reach to become "good" at the game. ToL and Hand raises that threshold, and it scares people away from the game, without deeper thought into why they lost and how they can beat that loss. Take Chess, for example. If Chess was introduced into todays society instead of 400 years ago, there would be many new players who would shout the oppressiveness of the Rook, or the Bishop, or even the Pawn. Why? Because people want to grok the game as soon as they learn it, and Mage Wars does not offer that. It is complex game designed to challenge the mind, not to just reward it. It is what brings so many people into the game. The deep, tactical gameplay. The double thinking as to what opponents are going to plan next. It is what makes ToL just another strategy, and not THE strategy. Simply because it is difficult to beat does not make it oppressive. And because it is a large hinderance to new players does not make it oppressive either, it simply means that we, as a community have to give new players a fighting chance by adding strategy articles, new content, videos of gameplay. It is in this that gives players the step ladder to the hurdle that is ToL/HoBS, not mechanics and rules changes. Let me give you an example. Magic the gathering is a rather popular game. It is also a very difficult game. It used to be that whenever a card would start to see a significant advantage in the meta game, said card would be banned/errata'd. Now, with the advent of the internet, and the popularity of strategy sites like Channelfireball, new players feel empowered instead of overwhelmed. Difficult strategies to beat become a lot easier once you understand how they work, and it is this grokking that new players need, not changes to the game itself, but the way they think about the game.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 03:52:21 PM by padawanofthegames »
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Fentum

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2013, 03:58:39 PM »
Padawan, I applaud all of that.

There is an on line game called Pox Nora that is conceptually very similar to Mage Wars. Outstanding for a long time, then a very active community called for nerfs, buffs, etc etc. Instead of agonising choices over tactics, it degenerated into a changing card landscape every couple of months, with each iteration changing many existing cards. In addition, power creep killed it.

Lets hope that Mage Wars stays special.

A few more videos of play from experienced, technically astute chaps might help new guys like me!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 04:00:41 PM by Fentum »

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2013, 07:19:25 PM »
I apologize Padawan, none of my implications were aimed at you in any way. Though I may not agree with some of your opinions I respect the rights to them.

The strategic choices allowed by mage wars is what drew me towards it in the first place. I love how strategy is a more deciding factor than luck. Something to always be aware of though in any strategy game is anything that completely warps the environment around it. See Magic the Gathering during Caw Blade.

What needs to be done is make sure HoBS does not get to that point. ToL is not the issue, it was merely a convenient tool. Making HoBS unique brings it into alignment for where it should be at in the game enviroment.

The Dude

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2013, 07:46:25 PM »
Uniqueness I think makes HoBS kind of unplayable, as it's power level is better with it's numbers. That being said, raising it's spell level to 2 makes it much harder to splash, and drops the play set to 4. As well, raising the cost to a mere 2 mana takes you from being able to cast two a turn from the beginning, which is what is so powerful, to something that you end up paying for in the end. It all comes down to what will still keep the card playable, but not dependable.
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HeatStryke

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2013, 07:50:35 PM »
Keep in mind, it can be made Unique for now, and then reprinted with a level/cost increase later without unique.

Most Recent Printing is a wonderful concept.

Kharhaz

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2013, 07:53:13 PM »
Uniqueness I think makes HoBS kind of unplayable, as it's power level is better with it's numbers. That being said, raising it's spell level to 2 makes it much harder to splash, and drops the play set to 4. As well, raising the cost to a mere 2 mana takes you from being able to cast two a turn from the beginning, which is what is so powerful, to something that you end up paying for in the end. It all comes down to what will still keep the card playable, but not dependable.

So you would actually run zero of them if it was unique?

shenanigans!

:P

The Dude

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2013, 08:46:17 PM »
Keep in mind, it can be made Unique for now, and then reprinted with a level/cost increase later without unique.

Most Recent Printing is a wonderful concept.

Reprints are already costly. Reprints after the card has already been fixed with a different fix will just confuse players even more, not to mention the costs.
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Tacullu64

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2013, 09:22:32 PM »
Ok so if I am understanding the reason for needing to nerf HoBS correctly it seems to me that Battle Fury needs to be nerfed too.

1.  It is so good I include it in almost all of my spellbooks. In fact I believe that is true of most players.

2.  It was in the first and second place builds at Bashcon. That is 25% of the books that we know of, 50% of the top 4, and it was probably in more.

3.  It is so good all the different mages use it, not just the warlord.

4.  14+ dice a turn by a single character is way too much. It totally breaks the damage curve.

5.  The most important reason, I don't like it. It doesn't fit well with the style I like to play and it it is very difficult to deal with. I only play it because it's so good there is no reason not to play it.

Does this cover the main reasons for nerfing a card or do I need some more?

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2013, 09:37:26 PM »
You don't like it is a terrible reason, but it's the main reason people give. Which is sad. 25 percent of the books? That's 2 books. I don't have it an any of my best spellbooks, because it's not as good as people want to believe. If you are going to be attacked by that much, get out of the way. It's that simple, it really is.
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Tacullu64

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2013, 09:52:22 PM »
It could have been in 100% of the books at Bashcon for all we know, the top 2 were the only ones posted.

As for the rest I was just being sarcastic. I can't believe that some think HoBS is OP and I was just trying to make a point. Which you helped me with by explaining why you think BF is not OP. Thanks for explaining the other side of the argument.

I am actually quite neutral towards BF. I do think it It is stronger than you give it credit.

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2013, 10:19:43 PM »
Oh, it is quite strong. It is also quite situational. Dependence on BF is again, a weakness, and not a strength.

Apologies for the lack of note on the sarcasm. It translates well over the internet;D Especially when there are many people who are making the same argument you are, with a serious tone.
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ringkichard

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2013, 10:26:47 PM »
I think it's worth waiting to see how the meta develops. If Hand is in every competitive book I think that's actually an argument NOT to ban it or change it. Its cheap and doesn't distort gameplay too much. It's versatile enough to fit in many different book types. If all lists start with 3x hand... the problem has largely solved itself.

Hand is only a problem if it shows up only a few lists, and those specific lists win much too often.
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Tacullu64

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2013, 10:39:09 PM »
Oh, it is quite strong. It is also quite situational. Dependence on BF is again, a weakness, and not a strength.

Apologies for the lack of note on the sarcasm. It translates well over the internet;D Especially when there are many people who are making the same argument you are, with a serious tone.

No apologies necessary. I tried to not go over the top with my sarcasm because I was fishing for a response like yours, an honest defense of BF.

When you phrase your assessment of BF this way I totally agree. I think it is cheap enough to almost warrant an auto include of a singleton copy because its not too difficult to catch someone with it once.

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Re: Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2013, 06:54:42 AM »
@Ringkichard

I suppose that is true, but it would make the game pretty boring and limited if everyone was actually using it.