Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: DaveW on November 27, 2015, 03:28:30 PM
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Someone played an enchantment that gave him an auto defense for one mana... I am guessing that it is an Academy spell, since I don't have that. Does anyone know what it is called?
Since it defends for one mana, why would anyone ever play Block anymore?
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I don't know what it was, but defense isnt a guaranteed save whereas a block is... but then 1 mana is pretty cheap, I'd cast it :)
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This was a guaranteed save... no roll needed apparently.
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I believe the card you mean is called Dodge. It is only an automatic defense for Minor Creatures (level 1 or level 2) everything else rolls a 7+ dodge chance. OR it could have been a Jade Gremlin that can pay 1 mana to dodge anything.
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I think that it was the creature that grows in power... probably an air creature... I remember that it had 5 dice maximum. It must be a minor creature, I guess.
So... for swarms of level 1-2's, no one will ever put block on them... dodge is so much better.
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I think that it was the creature that grows in power... probably an air creature... I remember that it had 5 dice maximum. It must be a minor creature, I guess.
So... for swarms of level 1-2's, no one will ever put block on them... dodge is so much better.
So lightnig Raptor is lvl 2 (1 air and 1 arcane) - so its a minor creature.
Regarding Dodge.
It has a reveal cost of 0 (2 less than block). It Must be revealed when this creature is attacked (so its earlier than block.)
This means there is time to reveal Falcon Precision before the avoid attack step.
When it comes to lvl 1 and 2 creatures, most of the time this spell is superior because its cheaper.
For lvl 3 + creatures i would prefer block almost always.
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Regarding Dodge.
It has a reveal cost of 0 (2 less than block). It Must be revealed when this creature is attacked (so its earlier than block.)
This means there is time to reveal Falcon Precision before the avoid attack step.
When dodge is revealed the attack is canceled as per the effect, or if the defense roll is successful there is no need for falcon precision.
You can always reveal a falcon precision before step 2 and get through a block as well by the way.
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Thanks, everyone. From what I understand, Dodge is revealed immediately (unlike Block, which is revealed in the Avoid Attack step)... so there is a chance to reveal Falcon Precision before the Avoid Attack step and therefore prevent the effect from happening.
Regarding level 3+ creatures, doesn't Falcon Precision also enable the attack? Or is the dodge defense roll made as soon as Dodge is revealed?
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Thanks, everyone. From what I understand, Dodge is revealed immediately (unlike Block, which is revealed in the Avoid Attack step)... so there is a chance to reveal Falcon Precision before the Avoid Attack step and therefore prevent the effect from happening.
Regarding level 3+ creatures, doesn't Falcon Precision also enable the attack? Or is the dodge defense roll made as soon as Dodge is revealed?
Dodge does one of three things:
minor creature: "cancel the attack"
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7+ defense roll : "the attack is avoided"
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1-6 defense roll : nothing
Its not specific to any phase, step, or anything else. If, for the sake of argument, a goblin grunt w/ dodge reveals dodge, that attack is canceled when dodge resolves.
So the ultimate question is when is dodge revealed?
When this creature is attacked is very vague, however in my heart of hearts ,and because of my knowledge of Academy, dodge is revealed at the same time as block but they opted out of putting that phrase on the card to trim down on text space / complexity.
But instead we have "when this creature is attacked" and so there are 3 ways you could realistically rule where that mandatory reveal is happening:
End of Step 1:
After all costs are paid you have committed to the attack. Until you can cancel the attack and even choose another action. Once all costs are paid you have declared the attack, which states an attacker and defender are chosen. That could be enough to qualify as "when this creature is attacked" which would force a reveal at end of this step, canceling the attack or making an effect roll if higher level. No falcon precision
Between Step1 and Step 2:
One could argue, loosely, that step 1 ends immediately after all costs are paid and "you are not being attacked" until after step 1 ends. Even if this was case whomever had initiative would have precedence to reveal any number of enchantments, resolving each one before revealing another. In this case you could use a falcon precision to bypass the dodge, but you would have to reveal it / resolve it before the dodge is revealed.
If there was a conflict of timing and the goblins controller had initiative, he would be forced to reveal dodge and resolve it before the falcon precision gets a chance to effect the outcome.
Step 2:
This is the nice and linear place to put it since it is the step designed to handle defense and such. It would playout like block in the presumed example here.
Rambled there a bit, but the point is once the effect of dodge is revealed / resolved you cannot effect it later and it has to finish resolving when it starts before another enchantment can begin.
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Dodge counts as a defense... defenses take place in the avoid attack step.
Just because it has to be revealled early doesnt mean it cannot affect later steps.
There are several academy cards that in the attempt of simplifying the game are inconsistent with the current game.
That is a problem.
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I guess we will need some kind of AW ruling on the timing of this (and, from the sound of it) other Academy spells.
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There is a FAQ being worked on. Laddin's a very busy guy :)
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There are several academy cards that in the attempt of simplifying the game are inconsistent with the current game.
That is a problem.
:'(
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Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step. Dodge counts as a defense and defenses are used in the avoid attack step. Saying it must be revealed when this creature is attacked sets up the "trigger" to reveal it. A creature is attacked once it's attacker pays all of the cost associated with that attack and the Attack is "locked in".
So, to be clear Dodge counts as a defense. This means that you can only use it in the Avoid Attack step, and because of its trigger, if you've been attacked then you must reveal it. Also, because it counts as a defense if for some reason your Dodge fails you cannot attempt another defense as you are limited to one defense per attack.
I hope this helps clear things up for everyone.
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Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step. Dodge counts as a defense and defenses are used in the avoid attack step. Saying it must be revealed when this creature is attacked sets up the "trigger" to reveal it. A creature is attacked once it's attacker pays all of the cost associated with that attack and the Attack is "locked in".
So, to be clear Dodge counts as a defense. This means that you can only use it in the Avoid Attack step, and because of its trigger, if you've been attacked then you must reveal it. Also, because it counts as a defense if for some reason your Dodge fails you cannot attempt another defense as you are limited to one defense per attack.
I hope this helps clear things up for everyone.
Sorry... but it seems to me that you are saying two different things:
1) Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step, and
2) It must be revealed when this creature is attacked (which you also define as when its attacker pays all of the costs associated with the attack and the Attack is "locked in") -- which I can see as happening in the Declare step.
Also, does it really matter where the defense is actually used (in terms of when the enchantment is revealed)? You never have to reveal non-mandatory enchantments when they are actually used, after all.
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Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step. Dodge counts as a defense and defenses are used in the avoid attack step. Saying it must be revealed when this creature is attacked sets up the "trigger" to reveal it. A creature is attacked once it's attacker pays all of the cost associated with that attack and the Attack is "locked in".
So, to be clear Dodge counts as a defense. This means that you can only use it in the Avoid Attack step, and because of its trigger, if you've been attacked then you must reveal it. Also, because it counts as a defense if for some reason your Dodge fails you cannot attempt another defense as you are limited to one defense per attack.
I hope this helps clear things up for everyone.
Sorry... but it seems to me that you are saying two different things:
1) Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step, and
2) It must be revealed when this creature is attacked (which you also define as when its attacker pays all of the costs associated with the attack and the Attack is "locked in") -- which I can see as happening in the Declare step.
Also, does it really matter where the defense is actually used (in terms of when the enchantment is revealed)? You never have to reveal non-mandatory enchantments when they are actually used, after all.
"If a mandatory or single use enchantment is revealed at any time other than the event for which it is supposed to trigger, it has no effect and is immediately destroyed and discarded. You cannot hold the revealed spell, to use its effect at a later time."
So the entire attack sequence is one event now?
If it is not, Dodge cannot work as you stated. If you reveal a mandatory enchantment in the Declare step that would cause it to be discarded immediately without effect as per the mandatory / single use rule.
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Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step. Dodge counts as a defense and defenses are used in the avoid attack step. Saying it must be revealed when this creature is attacked sets up the "trigger" to reveal it. A creature is attacked once it's attacker pays all of the cost associated with that attack and the Attack is "locked in".
So, to be clear Dodge counts as a defense. This means that you can only use it in the Avoid Attack step, and because of its trigger, if you've been attacked then you must reveal it. Also, because it counts as a defense if for some reason your Dodge fails you cannot attempt another defense as you are limited to one defense per attack.
I hope this helps clear things up for everyone.
Sorry... but it seems to me that you are saying two different things:
1) Dodge is revealed in the Avoid Attack step, and
2) It must be revealed when this creature is attacked (which you also define as when its attacker pays all of the costs associated with the attack and the Attack is "locked in") -- which I can see as happening in the Declare step.
Also, does it really matter where the defense is actually used (in terms of when the enchantment is revealed)? You never have to reveal non-mandatory enchantments when they are actually used, after all.
"If a mandatory or single use enchantment is revealed at any time other than the event for which it is supposed to trigger, it has no effect and is immediately destroyed and discarded. You cannot hold the revealed spell, to use its effect at a later time."
I do not believe that this has anything to do with what I was saying. I am not concerned with the revelation of the Dodge, which I believe must be during the (and right at the end of) the Declare Attack step.
My point was that the prior remarks seemed contradictory... that it would be revealed at two different times.
To play Devil's Advocate a little more here though, if I may, I still do not understand why you can't reveal the Falcon Precision after the Declare Attack step. (Or can you, but not have it be effective during the Avoid Attack step for some reason?)
Thanks to all for trying to help me understand.
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Dodge works like a defense and if you get attacked you have to use it like you would a defense. I feel if the card had said "if" instead of "when" this world work better. But end of the day it's a defense and is used as such.
Falcon's Precision can be revealed after any of the steps of an attack. However, this will not stop a Dodge or Block unless you reveal them before the others are revealed, as there is not a step in the resolution of those enchantments that would allow another enchantment's reveal.
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Dodge works like a defense and if you get attacked you have to use it like you would a defense. I feel if the card had said "if" instead of "when" this world work better. But end of the day it's a defense and is used as such.
Falcon's Precision can be revealed after any of the steps of an attack. However, this will not stop a Dodge or Block unless you reveal them before the others are revealed, as there is not a step in the resolution of those enchantments that would allow another enchantment's reveal.
So is it revealed in step 1 or 2?
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Dodge works like a defense and if you get attacked you have to use it like you would a defense. I feel if the card had said "if" instead of "when" this world work better. But end of the day it's a defense and is used as such.
Falcon's Precision can be revealed after any of the steps of an attack. However, this will not stop a Dodge or Block unless you reveal them before the others are revealed, as there is not a step in the resolution of those enchantments that would allow another enchantment's reveal.
So is it revealed in step 1 or 2?
Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand here? As a defense it is revealed when defenses are used: during the Avoid Attack step. Is that clear enough?
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Dodge works like a defense and if you get attacked you have to use it like you would a defense. I feel if the card had said "if" instead of "when" this world work better. But end of the day it's a defense and is used as such.
Falcon's Precision can be revealed after any of the steps of an attack. However, this will not stop a Dodge or Block unless you reveal them before the others are revealed, as there is not a step in the resolution of those enchantments that would allow another enchantment's reveal.
So is it revealed in step 1 or 2?
Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand here? As a defense it is revealed when defenses are used: during the Avoid Attack step. Is that clear enough?
No I just read like the last three posts wrong is all. Its been a crazy week.......
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Its always kinda cute and a little bit encouraging for the rest of us when even the playtesters (who I sort of regard as the most experienced with the game nuances) get confused.
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It's our job to get confused and make mistakes :)
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It's our job to get confused and make mistakes :)
What step does that happen in? ☺
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Dodge works like a defense and if you get attacked you have to use it like you would a defense. I feel if the card had said "if" instead of "when" this world work better. But end of the day it's a defense and is used as such.
Falcon's Precision can be revealed after any of the steps of an attack. However, this will not stop a Dodge or Block unless you reveal them before the others are revealed, as there is not a step in the resolution of those enchantments that would allow another enchantment's reveal.
So is it revealed in step 1 or 2?
Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand here? As a defense it is revealed when defenses are used: during the Avoid Attack step. Is that clear enough?
I still have the same question, and no, I am not deliberately trying to misunderstand. What I have heard for AW is that it is revealed at both times (hence my request for clarification). I don't have the card, and can't find a copy of it online, but it sounds as if the card text says that it is revealed when attacked... which happens in Step 1... not Step 2. True, it isn't used until Step 2... but who cares?
I also still do not know, presuming that it is revealed in Step 1, whether revealing a Falcon Precision after Step 1 will cause the defense to fail.
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You cannot reveal Falcon Precision "in response" to a Defense being used or having Dodge or Block revealed. There are no steps in those processes to "respond" to. If you want to avoid their Defenses, Dodge, or Block then you must have Falcon Precision revealed before any of those things are used. I hope this clears things up.
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You cannot reveal Falcon Precision "in response" to a Defense being used or having Dodge or Block revealed. There are no steps in those processes to "respond" to. If you want to avoid their Defenses, Dodge, or Block then you must have Falcon Precision revealed before any of those things are used. I hope this clears things up.
So, Dodge is revealed in Step 2 then. Correct?
The way I understood it earlier was that it was revealed in Step 1.
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What's important is that I knew in my heart of hearts where it needed to go down at :P