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Messages - Ganpot

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General Discussion / Re: Is mage wars losing popularity?

« on: February 06, 2015, 04:39:49 AM »

Quote from: Schwenkgott on February 06, 2015, 04:00:37 AM

The problem is, that people don't like to prepare for a session by reading the rulebook. They want to have instant fun. If they would read the rulebook, the beginner rules would be clear, thinking about rules would be minimized in the game. Additionally, it always helps to use a time limit in the planning phase.
btw. a game of chess can take some time too.

With as many rules as Mage Wars has, there is always going to be a lot of rule double (or triple) checking going on during the first few games, no matter how thoroughly the rules were explained ahead of time. And I'm not sure adding a timer would really help new players. It would probably just stress them out even more.

Quote from: Schwenkgott on February 06, 2015, 04:00:37 AM

I cannot agree with you. You can always approach the game in a logic way and you will find out, that that's exactly how the rules work. The new generation of players did grow up with easy games like pokemon and stuff like that. They dont know, how challenging a game can be for their brains. In my opinion, it's not the game's fault, it's player-sided.

Most of the rules are logical, but that doesn't mean rule interactions aren't complex. Additionally, most games deliberately limit a player's available number of choices, which Mage Wars doesn't do (something I actually like about the game, but it is a double-edged sword). Every new player I've seen has been completely overwhelmed by information in their first matches. In my opinion, that's not because players are used to easy or simple games; children of the past decade have usually started playing various types of games from a very young age (largely due to the steady increase of mainstream gaming as a whole). They are used to figuring out new games. And I've also attempted to teach Mage Wars to older people who had no problems learning other complex games such as Battlestar Galactica or Arkham Horror. But I have yet to find someone who truly understands what is going on by the end of their first Mage Wars session. Everything I've seen points to Mage Wars being much harder to learn than games similar to it, such as MtG and Summoner Wars.

General Discussion / Re: Is mage wars losing popularity?

« on: February 06, 2015, 03:43:58 AM »

Mage Wars has three major problems that hinder its adoption rate:
1. Game Length - simply put, it's not possible for most people to play Mage Wars on a whim. It's a full on event, like a D&D session. When combined with the fact that Mage Wars is only officially meant for 1v1, most people end up forgoing Mage Wars sessions for either faster or more social board/card games. Most of the people that I've seen on the forums are lucky to have one game of Mage Wars a week, and it can be safely assumed that those are the more hardcore players.
2. Portability - I think this issue often gets overlooked, because it doesn't apply as much to the professional scene. When I was a child, kids would constantly bring Pokemon/Digimon/Yu-gi-oh/MtG cards to school and have games during break or while waiting to be picked up by their parents. I don't think that ever happens with Mage Wars, because it is much harder to transport. You need the cards, board, dice, tokens, rulebook, and wooden markers. This doesn't just effect children, either. People in general are far less likely to carry something with them if it won't fit into a pocket. A spellbook alone kind of pushes that boundary.
3. Learning Curve - this game has brutally complex rules. It is almost certainly the most difficult to learn card game I've ever seen (and one of the most difficult board games). It took me a good 4 matches to really get a grip on all of the base rules (and I'm pretty experienced with games). Even just knowing the basic rules isn't really enough, since there are so many special abilities and keywords that dramatically change the game. This problem will only get worse as more content is released.

Mage Wars Academy will hopefully fix the first two problems (even if it doesn't directly help Arena), but the third problem will remain.

On a semi-related note, if there was one part of Mage Wars I could change (disregarding the problems mentioned above), it would be the dice rolls for damage and effects. The entire benefit of eliminating card draw was to remove randomness and encourage strategic play. Die rolls do the exact opposite of that. Will that pack of wolves be able to murder my Iron Golem this turn? Nobody knows. Will I be able to prevent disaster by casting a Lightning Bolt at the Steelclaw Grizzly and stunning it? Your guess is as good as mine.

If I lose a game, I want to feel like it was completely my own fault. The psychological effect of randomness is far more powerful than statistics would have you believe. I don't care that die rolls should even out over a long period of time; I want to play a card and know that the same exact thing will happen every time.

General Discussion / Re: Archmage Expansion

« on: October 12, 2014, 01:49:49 AM »

Quote from: Sailor Vulcan on October 11, 2014, 07:19:00 PM

I'm not raining on your parade. I actually like the idea, I just wasn't sure of any way to implement it mechanically and be sufficiently more unique than a half-Druid half Necromancer.

The only thing I was referring to when I mentioned joke expansions was the lawyer. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Don't worry about it. I was joking when I said not to ruin my dreams (I felt the crying emoticon would make that clear, but perhaps it didn't).

General Discussion / Re: Archmage Expansion

« on: October 11, 2014, 06:31:16 PM »

Quote from: Sailor Vulcan on October 11, 2014, 05:01:31 PM

I'm not sure how they'd differentiate between Necromancer poison/disease and fungal disease. Maybe the Necro spreads diseases by virus while this other mage spreads diseases through living fungal parasites?

Well, maybe instead of the diseases directly hurting enemy creatures, fungal diseases allow the D/N mage to summon more troops (for every point of damage the enemy creature takes, 1 very small friendly creature is spawned in that zone), change the terrain (if a creature dies, it turns the zone into a mushroom forest or something), or buff friendly units (every fungal creature that attacks the cursed enemy heals based on damage done). A Dark/Nature mage wouldn't even necessarily have to specialize in diseases, and could focus on something else entirely.

You don't understand.... I just really want Mushroom People in Mage Wars. I don't care how or why. I want them almost as badly as I want people riding giant seahorses and a sharktopus (as mentioned by Ozmo). [Include them in PvS, devs! You know you want to!!!] Don't ruin my dreams

! It would be nice to see Mage Wars occasionally embracing some more humorous or unusual concepts.

Quote from: Sailor Vulcan on October 11, 2014, 05:01:31 PM

Also there is already a thread on the subject of joke expansions:

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13081

And the lawyer idea was listed in the very first post too. I guess I need to become more creative...

General Discussion / Re: Archmage Expansion

« on: October 10, 2014, 10:46:01 PM »

Quote from: Wildhorn on October 09, 2014, 04:17:48 PM

Quote from: sIKE on October 09, 2014, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: V10lentray on October 09, 2014, 12:48:56 PM
But if someone played the [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC03]Bloodcrag Minotaur[/mwcard] against your Terracotta Army you would figuratively have a bull in a China Shop
I think it would be literally not figuratively.......

Well... there would be no shop

That gives me an idea for a great April Fools mage: the lawyer. He murders all of his foes.... financially.

*enemy mage summons a Bloodcrag Minotaur* "Not so fast!" *Lawyer activates the Custody Battle card* The Minotaur is banished for 18 turns!

*enemy mage casts Barracks* "I don't think so!" *Lawyer casts Eviction Notice* Barracks is re-acquired by the bank!

The Lawyer: so overpowered that he can fight up to 4 Archmages simultaneously. Get yours on March 28, 2015!

Quote from: Gregstrom on October 10, 2014, 05:48:41 PM

Dark/Nature could be fun, with a whole corrupt vegetation thing going on, and disease and decay all over the place.

Fungus Mage? Please yes. I want to build a mushroom fortress (defended by mushroom people, of course).

General Discussion / Re: The Promo Debate

« on: September 26, 2014, 07:48:46 AM »

Quote from: Schwenkgott on September 26, 2014, 06:39:37 AM

That's why i'm looking forward to any new expansion and hope promo cards will be released soon as normal cards, when ever they fit in the theme of the expansion.

I definitely agree. I barely even know what Battlegrounds is yet, and I'm still impatient for it. My stance is just that, if promo cards are used competitively, they should be available to everyone equally. That's all.

Quote from: Wildhorn on September 26, 2014, 06:40:08 AM

An Halberd doesnt allow you to Reach the sky

Talos' halberd does. Although I have no idea how tall the statue is supposed to be...

General Discussion / Re: The Promo Debate

« on: September 26, 2014, 06:31:57 AM »

Quote from: Schwenkgott on September 26, 2014, 01:05:44 AM

1 Dispel or 1 Push in the final qc phase will end your spread of plague very quickly.

True, but I think Plagued will best be used liberally. One of them isn't that threatening, but 3(or even 4) of them together are (granted, you are tempting a Destroy Magic at that point). Even if only 2 creatures are getting hurt per turn, it still has the same efficiency as Ghoul Rot (2 damage per turn for 6 total mana). And if the enemy mage responds by breaking up their swarm, that's still a success (since it will hopefully cause them to lose momentum, as well as making it easier to pick off individual creatures).

What's more, it should cost you significantly less mana to kill creatures than it costs to summon them. For example, a timber wolf costs 9 mana to summon, and possesses 10 health. Assuming 4 of them are sharing a space, that's 36 total mana investment. Casting (and activating) 4 Plagued uses 24 mana. Assuming the wolves don't scatter, the curses aren't dispelled, (etc.), all of the wolves will be dead in 3 turns (for all intents and purposes, 2 turns if you reveal all of the curses at the very end of a round). That's obviously not a full-proof strategy (nothing should be), but it can be pretty effective.

The real downside of Plagued is that it effects all creatures in the zone, including your own. That is interesting, since it means that it is a curse meant for the Necromancer, not the Warlock. Plop down some zombies, throw out some Plagues, and sit back as your zombie horde chases down the scattered enemy forces.

Quote from: Schwenkgott on September 26, 2014, 01:05:44 AM

What's a Fortress of Death? High Guards are only effective, when they use their special ability ... they have to be on guard for this and you need to attack them. So don't. Their normal attack roll with 4 dice is not so scary without their special ability, right?

I see it like this: Guardian Angels (as well as Panzerguards) are great at wasting time. They are hard to kill, and generally force you to commit 2 creatures to an attack instead of 1 (of use some method to temporarily get rid of them, like Force Push). But they aren't really threatening. A counter-attack of 3 dice is only meaningful against something with low health and no armor. If you have to attack them, it's annoying but not usually life-threatening.

Temple High Guards, on the other hand, are guards which can actually murder stuff. If you attack one with a small or medium creature, it is going to suffer heavily (and if it dies, it doesn't even deal any damage). The Temple High Guards do suffer a bit from their lack of Intercept (and I'm not sure why they don't have Reach, considering they are using halberds...), but they are still useful for defending stuff against melee creatures (even if they can't go toe to toe against the really hard-hitting stuff).

General Discussion / Re: The Promo Debate

« on: September 25, 2014, 07:34:19 PM »

Quote from: Schwenkgott on September 25, 2014, 08:13:09 AM

I do not see overpowered cards here.

I never said they were overpowered. I said the Ballista is probably broken (aka overpowered), but the other cards were still powerful. There's a difference.

Even without being overpowered, these cards could have a drastic impact on the meta. Gravikor could potentially have wrecked the Straywood Aviary build that won GenCon this year. Plagued can potentially ruin swarm builds (especially wolf packs led by Redclaw). Altar of the Iron Guard combined with Temple High Guards and Defends could theoretically create a fortress of death.

None of that is necessarily bad or broken, as long as everyone is given the same tools.

General Discussion / Re: The Promo Debate

« on: September 25, 2014, 07:56:42 AM »

Even disregarding the (probably) broken Ballista, there are quite a few powerful promo cards.
-Gravikor
-Circle of Light
-Plagued
-Altar of the Iron Guard
-Summoning Circle
-Altar of Peace
-Raincloud
-Mordok's Tome
-Temple High Guard

Each one of those cards is at least potentially powerful within a niche. Some of them might even completely shake up the meta or make certain Mages less viable.

Quote from: silverclawgrizzly on September 25, 2014, 01:21:28 AM

I can speak from experience that they do not prove to be a problem in a prized tournament environment so long as you A: Announce their legality in advance and B: Make it known they can be borrowed from the venue.

That would be the only situation in which I could see promo cards being used fairly. I personally don't think a handful of extra cards warrants that much effort, but if tournament organizers feel differently, I don't have a problem with it.

Player Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Giant Wolf Spider

« on: September 18, 2014, 09:30:32 PM »

Giant Wolf Spiders simply have too many weaknesses to be viable. They suck against non-living or tough targets, and teleport (a card almost everyone runs) is a direct counter to them. There also need to be several alive at once to pose an imminent threat, but they cost so much mana that players can't afford to keep pumping them out. Not to mention the fact that they are counted as insects but not animals, and there is currently no insect synergy for any mage.

What the devs probably should have done is halve all the base stats and mana cost. A level 2, 8 mana creature with 1 armor and 7 health (and the same attacks as present) would be a decent situational tool for applying tainted and stuck conditions.

Quote from: V10lentray on September 17, 2014, 10:57:56 PM

Slap an Eagles wings on the Giant Wolf Spider and make the most terrifying thing ever.

A giant flying spider!!

I'm afraid someone has done one better on that count. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/loadingreadyrun/6096-Fear-Itself

And now I am sad that the devs didn't add those into Forged in Fire. It would have been perfect for the alternate warlock.

General Discussion / Re: Mage Wars on OCTGN

« on: September 17, 2014, 06:18:30 AM »

Quote from: Schwenkgott on September 16, 2014, 04:24:41 AM

Maybe it simply helps to read the Rule Book?! The Rulebook is fun to read if you are a fan of fantasy board games.
I did it when i started playing and i had no problem at all in my first game.
After that i had a lot of fun checking out all the cards available and reading the entire codex supplement with all the additional clarifications.

Don't try to teach Mage Wars to people, that are to lazy to do the first step on their own (reading the Rulebook). They won't become the fans you want them to be and it's a waste of time and energy.

I personally did read the rulebook before my first match (and constantly consulted it during the first few games). But Mage Wars has so many rules that need to be remembered that almost everyone will forget something here or there on their first couple of matches.

And in my experience, the absolute worst thing you can do while trying to teach the game to new players is to force them to read the 40+ page rulebook. Nothing kills excitement like 30 minutes of absolute boredom (and there's still the chance that they won't understand the rulebook anyway). If I tried it your way, I don't think I would have even gotten one person to enjoy the game. As it is, I'm still only sitting on a 3 out of 14 success rate.

Quote from: Imaginator on September 16, 2014, 04:53:46 AM

I suppose that perhaps the problem could be that a lot of casual players are prejudiced against complexity in games because they associate it too closely to "extreme difficulty I don't understand- headache, headache, not fun" rather than merely being a greater time investment.

I'm not sure if the problem is necessarily complexity, or simply that Mage Wars throws everything at you at once. A lot of board games (and card games) start out simple, and then become gradually more complicated as time goes on. For example, in Magic the Gathering each player only starts with (at most) 7 cards to choose from (some of which you probably cannot play until later on). Summoner Wars does start with things on the board, but only allows you to take a few actions per turn, regardless of how much stuff is present (in addition to a hand limit).

I think that when faced with so many choices and such complexity right off the bat, a lot of new players just panic. Which is a shame, because the choices and complexity are the absolute best parts of the game. I for one cannot go back to any traditional card game, because I'll just end up resenting the card draw mechanic.

Quote from: sIKE on September 16, 2014, 09:18:16 AM

I was thinking an OCTGN type cheat sheet, not how do I play Mage Wars cheat sheet.

I thought you might be, but I wasn't sure due to your mention of an existing Keyboard Mapping document. Out of curiosity, would it be feasible to add some (optional) buttons to the interface instead of relying entirely on keyboard mappings? Things such as: attack (roll dice), end phase/turn, add token, etc.

General Discussion / Re: Mage Wars on OCTGN

« on: September 16, 2014, 12:46:43 AM »

Quote from: sIKE on September 15, 2014, 09:51:02 AM

I would (no inside info here on my part) be very surprised that AW would be looking at developing a full blown game engine and implementation at this point. The player base for Magic or Netrunner is huge compared to the Mage Wars base in both IRL and OCTGN. For an effort like that, I imagine, you would want/require a base large enough to either pay once or a subscription so as to re-coup a good bit of your costs and going forward a margin that makes some money.

They probably aren't actively developing something like that at the moment (they have a lot on their plate), but I'd bet they are (or have) at least done some basic analysis (cost vs benefits, potential timescales, etc.).

Mage Wars does have a much smaller population than some (loosely) similar games. I think a big reason for that is the difficulty learning (and teaching) it. I am by no means a stranger to card games, board games, and computer games. But nevertheless, it took me 7 full games to really get comfortable with the rules. I can only imagine how frustrated and confused casual or non-gamers could become.

Even something as simple as a set of 1-action scenarios could visually demonstrate some of the rules in an interactive way, and thus increase learning speed (hopefully gaining more players and increasing Arcane Wonders' profits later down the road). But who knows... maybe the Academy expansion will serve as a good enough introduction that nothing else will be necessary.

Quote from: sIKE on September 15, 2014, 09:51:02 AM

Do you think a new players cheat sheet would help? I envision a single page that can be printed out, that contains the basics and step by step on playing your first game.

I imagine that would help a great deal. Most of the people I've tried to teach Mage Wars to (in real life) are completely overwhelmed by information on their first game, and refuse to play any more afterwards (since it takes so long for each game to play out). Apprentice mode doesn't really seem to help. I imagine most of the people trying to play on OCTGN are a little more experienced with the game, but you never know.

Some trouble areas I've noticed in particular are:
1. Quick Action vs Full Action vs Quick-Cast: practically no one I played with could wrap their head around these 3 things. At best, they would constantly confuse Quick-Cast and Quick Actions. After a while, I just gave up and only taught Quick Actions. Every full action was treated like a quick action, and each mage got to play one card from their book each turn and also take a normal action.
2. Traits and Effects: this one is understandable. People can't really be expected to understand the mechanics of Cripple or Weakness right off the bat. I sometimes just hand them the rule-book after flipping it to the Codex section (so they can look stuff up whenever they want), and I also sometimes eliminate traits and effects entirely.
3. Damage and Armor: I was greatly surprised at how confusing the damage system seems to be for some new players. Unfortunately, there's just no way around it. Armor is too important and prevalent to ignore, and without armor crits become useless as well (which just leads to further questions).
4. Mana Cost vs Level: these two things are fairly easy to explain (especially since Level rarely comes up if you aren't building spellbooks), but you just need to be very careful that new players aren't confusing the two stats for the first couple of turns.

Quote from: sIKE on September 15, 2014, 09:51:02 AM

We have a couple of big to items that might be of interest, though they will be slow to roll out. The first is a stats server which would collect the results of the game and some basic stats (which stats are still in flux). The second is attaching cards to other cards. Like Surging Wave to the Wizards tower or Bear Strength and Mongoose Agility to a Mage or Creature. Once we get the basics down we can automate that process a bit better and work in rules enforcement like not allowing Bear Strength on a Zombie Brute. This feature is one I am excited about as one we have attachments done we can look at automating things such as Regenerate, which believe it or not is one of the hardest items in the game to automate due to things such as the Unicorn.

Those are exactly the sort of improvements I was thinking of. Even extremely limited or basic rule enforcement would be awesome.

General Discussion / Re: Mage Wars on OCTGN

« on: September 15, 2014, 01:40:00 AM »

Quote from: Schwenkgott on September 15, 2014, 12:37:34 AM

I honestly do not unterstand your critics. When was the last time you played online?
OCTGN - in the state as it is now - provides some comfort automated features, but as player you are still in control and feel that you manage the gameboard. There is no important rule, that you can miss or will never hear about when playing via OCTGN. Everything that happens it written down in the chat box, so there is no accidental cheating. And btw. why would anyone try to cheat? Mage Wars is a game that you play for fun, to see if your spellbook works out against certain other mages ... not for winning at all cost.

Maybe some day, the guys from Arcane Wonders will decide to create an online version of their game. But until now, it's a module imspirated by the fans. And i think it's done in a way, that every player can be excited about Most of all, Sike is putting a lot of his time and passion into this project with all the updates, fixes and patches. He himself has hardly the time to play Mage Wars ... and he is not payed for that.
So why don't you enjoy what you can get for free. Of course, if you have some good ideas what can be improved to make Mage Wars on OCTGN even better, you're always welcome.

Please understand: I'm not trying to belittle OCTGN. For an non-commercialized product, it is pretty good. But from my previous experiences with it, I didn't view it as extremely new-user friendly (and I fully admit that it might be much better at this point).

There are most definitely rules that can be missed/misinterpreted while playing on OCTGN (just like they can be missed in real life). Mage Wars is a complicated game, and therefore has a LOT of minor rules. There are rules which even the devs haven't formed a full consensus on yet (Nullifying a Reverse Magic anyone?).

Again, I am not saying that OCTGN is bad. I am only stating that I hope Arcane Wonders takes the opportunity to develop an official online program. It isn't an insult to say that a decently well-off company should be able to design a more polished and robust program than a group of volunteer fans. After all, the company has a lot more manpower and resources at its disposal.

Quote from: sIKE on September 14, 2014, 10:36:45 PM

When is the last time you played on OCTGN? There is a bit of automation there, what do you think is missing from an automation point of view? Mind you I am constrained by the limits of the OCTGN system itself. I can tell you that after working on this for over a year now what you ask of Arcane Wonders (that OCTGN is not meeting) is quite the under taking. They would have to develop the engine first and then the rules to make the game automated. It is quite the task!!!!

I also believe that with either OCTGN or their own solution, that there will be a bit of a learning curve that all players will need to master to be able to play online. I know many many players find that fact daunting and skip playing as a result. Some get frustrated and walk away from it. Those who have worked through the process (typically 3-4 games (some partial)) and then it is like old hat.....

My knowledge of OCTGN is a bit out of date, I admit. I would like to compare these two videos in order to illustrate my point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=209u9ykbbtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MthVaZ0fN_c As you can see, DotP performs very fluidly and automates things such as viable targets, mana consumption (from what I remember, OCTGN doesn't take spawnpoint mana into account by default), and combat damage. Mind you, OCTGN is perfectly functional (so long as at least one player is actually familiar with the rules), but it lacks a lot of those ease of use functions.

I'm fully aware that developing a fully-featured online engine for Mage Wars would be a fairly demanding task, which is why I didn't suggest that OCTGN do it (that would be unreasonable). I would be shocked if Arcane Wonders isn't already considering the possibility. They've already got an online spellbook builder and an IOS application. The success of Hearthstone also clearly shows that there's a big potential market for online card games.

There will always be a learning curve with games like this. But with a decent set of tutorials/explanations, a helpful community, and a good presentation, a lot more people can be convinced to stick with it until they learn enough to really start having fun.

General Discussion / Re: Spell Tomes 1 & 2

« on: September 14, 2014, 10:06:36 PM »

Quote from: alboy on September 13, 2014, 07:42:10 AM

Does anyone know?

I have no idea, but I would assume that the Spell Tomes do include the updated cards (since the outdated ones are probably no longer in production). Of course, you will need to make sure you order a newer Spell Tome set, since some distributors will no doubt have extra copies of the older versions and not really care to check which is which.

If worst comes to worst, you can always print off the updated cards from the website and use those (maybe put those in front of the actual cards inside of a sleeve).

General Discussion / Re: Mage Wars on OCTGN

« on: September 14, 2014, 10:00:35 PM »

Not to dismiss OCTGN or anything, but I really wish Arcane Wonders would create an official online Mage Wars program. OCTGN doesn't automate very many tasks, which makes it hard for newer players to use it (and allows accidental cheating).

An official online version of the game would have a lot of benefits:

1. More Potential Fans - not everyone is into physical card and/or board games, and an online trial version (perhaps featuring apprentice mode or the standard 4 assembled base books) would allow a lot of people to try out the game first-hand before buying it.
2. Better Players - online matchmaking is usually far more convenient than meeting up with friends/rivals. This should result in more overall matches, and therefore a more experienced playerbase. Players will also be able to compete against a larger pool of adversaries, which means more exposure to different metas and strategies. Lastly, if rules are largely automated (as they are in the MtG games), players will be less confused about the various rules (this goes double if there are dedicated tutorials).
3. More Thorough Playtesting - Mage Wars already does a great job of this, but issues always crop up every now and then. Online matchmaking would allow for cards to be temporarily altered and playtested en masse at a rapid pace (either before their initial launch, or in preparation for errata).

If I had to guess, the devs' main holdup is that they don't want an online version of the game to cannibalize the physical one. There are some easy ways to get around that, however. My advice would be to simply tie the two versions together: the only way to purchase online expansions is to buy the physical ones and then redeem a code online (do current sets have any unique identification code on them?).

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