Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: lettucemode on November 14, 2013, 04:12:53 PM
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I really like the idea of multi-school spells. Two different approaches to magic coming together and unleashing a new energy or beast upon the world, as terrifying and wondrous as them both (hey, I tried). This thread is intended to be a discussion of the currently released multicolored spells. Does their multicolored nature match up to their theme? Are they everything that they could be? Let's find out!
Battle Forge
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MW1J04.jpg)
We begin with a card that is strong in both theme and execution. Battle Forge pounds out equipment for your mage to wear even in the midst of battle. It is a perfect blend of the War and Fire schools, and reminds me of that scene in <any war movie> where the smiths are making swords and armor for battle. It's so straightforward and effective that I don't have much else to say about it. I give Battle Forge 5 hammers out of 5.
Renewing Spring
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/FWJ08.jpg)
Another strong card, but the theme of this one is not as resonant. Why is there a level of Nature thrown in there? The card provides healing and condition removal - both of which have firm precedence in Holy magic. Is there anything about this card that says "Nature"? I see nothing. I suspect that this card was made multischool so that all mages would pay a minimum of three spellbook points for it. Besides that, I can't think of a reason it's not simply a Level 2 Holy spell. Renewing Spring gets 3 Dixie cups out of 5.
Adramelech, Lord of Fire
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MW1C01.jpg)
Ahh, Adramelech, everyone's favorite flying demon lord person. Adramelech is a great blend of the Dark and Fire schools. All other Demons are Dark school only, so it makes sense that the big guy is more Dark than Fire. 4 Dark and 2 Fire means he's a little less Warlock-exclusive than he could be - the Necromancer can give him a slot in the spellbook for 8 points. Too many levels in Fire, for example if he were 4 Fire and 2 Dark, would make him an attractive choice for Fire Wizards, so let's be thankful his school levels fell where they did. Adramelech gets 5 fiery scythes out of 5 from me.
Bridge Troll
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MWSTX1CKC01.jpg)
(gosh, some of these images have really large sizes)
Okay, let's think about this. What kind of Nature spells does the Beastmaster specialize in? Correct, it's Animals. What kind of Nature spells does the Druid specialize in? Plants and Vines, right again! Does the Troll subtype currently have any synergies with anything else? Nope! Does the Soldier subtype? Yep, the Warlord is great with Soldiers!
...so why, why, WHY does the Warlord pay more for this guy than either of the Nature mages!? I mean seriously, would any Beastmaster book use this over an Animal creature, like the Steelclaw Grizzly for only 4 mana more? Would any Druid use it over a Plant or Vine creature?
I think Bridge Troll should have been 2 War, 1 Nature. The Regenerate 3 is not enough to justify 2 levels in Nature on a Soldier creature. Trolls regenerating is a fantasy trope found in lots of places and environments, it is not specific to Nature trolls. And costing the Warlord more spellbook points than Thorg, Chief Badass is just nonsensical. Bridge Troll is a strong player when he hits the board, but thanks to his weird multi-schooling, getting him there is so awkward that he often just gets neglected. Bridge Troll gets 2 dark, smelly bridge underpasses out of 5.
Galador, Protector of Straywood
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MWSTX1CKC03.jpg)
Now here is a creature whose multiple schools were well thought out! Galador is a level 4 creature who costs every mage at least 5 spellbook points due to his sheer awesomeness. A great forest protector, taking the form of a stag? That's worth 3 Nature levels right there. Throw in a level of Air for the lightning and you've got a creature that's fun to play, very effective, and most importantly, his multiple schools make sense. I give Galador 5 thunderbolts out of 5, and they're the big, loud, awesome kind of thunderbolts.
Screech Harpy
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MWSTX1CKC05.jpg)
I think an opportunity was missed by making the Screech Harpy 2 Arcane. The 1 Wind makes sense, but the Arcane just seems like the designers really wanted Wizards to use this card. I think that the Arcane 2 should be Mind 2 instead. Don't agree? Look at the flavor text. Look at the Maddening Shriek attack. Consider that the Siren will probably specialize in the Psychic subtype of the Mind school. Harpy is a pretty good control creature that would probably be more popular if the Forcemaster could efficiently use it to help control the board. If the Siren ends up having good control options, Screech Harpy might have seen more play when she came out. As it stands, with the schools limiting this card to pretty much Wizard only and all Zombies being immune to its best attack, Screech Harpy is merely a novelty. 3 maddening shrieks out of 5.
Armor Ward
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MWSTX1CKE01.jpg)
This spell just seems...confused. It's a Protection spell, so it's Holy. It protects your armor though, so it's War. Then I guess it also interferes with magical effects like Dissolve, so it's Metamagic? Even though Arcane (where the rest of the Metamagic stuff is) and War are supposed to be opposing schools, in a sense? Okay... The card itself is fine. I think it will make a lot more thematic sense when the Paladin comes out. Right now though, the combination of War and Holy isn't very intuitive. 3 frustrated Dissolve attempts out of 5.
Spiked Pit
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MWSTX1CKE05.jpg)
A simple card, but nice. Themes of War and Earth (digging a trap for one's enemies) is well communicated. Level 1 of both schools is appropriate for the single attack and Stuck condition this card gives. Not much else to say really, except that it's maybe not the most exciting card. 4 bloody spikes out of 5 from me!
Turn to Stone
(http://wp.arcanewonders.com/mw/assets/MW1E39.jpg)
I haven't had the privilege of seeing this card in any of my games, but I like it. This card may seem inferior to Force Hold/Crush until you realize that it Incapacitates whereas those other spells merely Restrain. Primarily Arcane with a dash of Earth magic makes perfect thematic sense! 5 garden sculptures out of 5.
Renewing Rain
(no image yet)
Renewing Rain is a Level 1 Holy and Level 1 Water spell that removes all burn conditions from all objects in the arena and heals them a little bit. This is another perfect blend of schools. It's possible that the Nature school could have been thrown in there somewhere but I am glad it was left out. A healing, soothing rain is a great mental image and a perfect example of what multischool spells can be. I give it 5 happy, not-on-fire flowers out of 5!
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I loved your post Lettuce! The only thing I would argue with is the harpy. I agree mind would make sense, but most "traditional" mythological creatures in Etheria were made through magical experimentation, and thus are arcane.
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As for Renewing Spring....Renewing Font would be Holy 2 but since there is a Spring involved here I tend to lean towards Nature on that part of the spell.
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I loved your post Lettuce! The only thing I would argue with is the harpy. I agree mind would make sense, but most "traditional" mythological creatures in Etheria were made through magical experimentation, and thus are arcane.
Good point, I did not consider Etherian lore when writing about the Harpy. However if the Harpy is Arcane then it should have more arcane-oriented abilities, not Psychic/Mind ones. In my opinion anyway.
As for Renewing Spring....Renewing Font would be Holy 2 but since there is a Spring involved here I tend to lean towards Nature on that part of the spell.
Another good point - at first glance the art looked like a man-made fountain to me. But if I changed the name of the card to Renewing Fountain and the school levels to 2 Holy, would the spell still make sense? Yes, it would, and that's why I question why it's part Nature. The Nature aspect should be reflected somewhat in the effects or function of the spell, and I don't think it is.
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Water would make more sense than nature renewing spring. I mean, it is water.
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Water would make more sense than nature renewing spring. I mean, it is water.
That I could agree with.
I can still picture a bubbling Spring in the middle of the forest that has these mystical healing proprieties that the followers of Asyra have found and made a holy site.
Remember these spells are copies of the real thing from the World of Etheria.
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Great post, Lettuce! I love the conversational style, the amusing scoring system (which I totally agree) and I agree with most of the content. A great breakfast read.
A couple of points of where maybe design should think about
(a) Making a card hybrid makes it more expensive for everyone except the rare mage with relevant dual trainin (so should be totemic for that mage, eg Lord of Fire), thus needs to be a level 3+ in power spell effect
Example: Harpy could have been Arcane 1 Mind 1 (3 points for any Arcane or Mind mage, not just Air Wizards)
So what is Air? Wings do not make you Air.
Whirling Spirit obviously
Seleseus East Wind and Valshalla Lightning Angel should be Holy 3 Air 1
In short, there must be some traits (not Flying) associated to Air (usually Push, Lightning, Ethereal, Incorporeal)
(b) Making a card a certain school should strengthen that school's theme
Example: say Renewing Spring was Holy 1 Water 1
This would make sense with Renewing Rain
More importantly, it strengthens the Water school theme of condition removal (Geyser, Extinguish, Rain, even Corrode is a removal of a pre-existing condition)
War for example should be the school for Artifice (the opposite of Nature), hence prevalent in Equipment and Structures. I don't actually like the Fire in Battle Forge because Fire is destructive, not constructive in theme, and it does not synergise with Equipment. I would have made Battle Forge War 1 Arcane 1 because it makes magic items.
Magic has had years to fine tune the themes of its colours. When you read a card's effect and you can immediately its colour(s)/school(s), that is the holy Grail of strong theme.
This is a matter of taste. For example, in ACG's Custom Cards discussion, both of us have pretty close ideas of what effects should be given to each school and hence there are a lot of hybrid cards (he loves his Mind 1 Dark 1 cards as he is a gothic fantasy lover). Luckily, he and I are "on the same page".
With time, the designers and fan base will synchronise their expectations of appropriate schools. I have preconceptions but in time I can be trained in alternative views as I hopefully see patterns in the associated school levels.
Thanks for the post, Lettuce. Great stuff.
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War for example should be the school for Artifice (the opposite of Nature), hence prevalent in Equipment and Structures. I don't actually like the Fire in Battle Forge because Fire is destructive, not constructive in theme, and it does not synergise with Equipment. I would have made Battle Forge War 1 Arcane 1 because it makes magic items.
I'm glad they didn't make it 1 War/1 Arcane: it would have been yet another slap in the face to the Warlord.
Though I think they made it 1 War/1 Fire since the forge itself requires fire to make the equipment, so mastering the fire aspect of it would be essential to make the shape of the object, with the actual item enchantment being done by the mage and not by the forge.
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I think Bridge Troll should have been 2 War, 1 Nature. The Regenerate 3 is not enough to justify 2 levels in Nature on a Soldier creature. Trolls regenerating is a fantasy trope found in lots of places and environments, it is not specific to Nature trolls. And costing the Warlord more spellbook points than Thorg, Chief Badass is just nonsensical. Bridge Troll is a strong player when he hits the board, but thanks to his weird multi-schooling, getting him there is so awkward that he often just gets neglected. Bridge Troll gets 2 dark, smelly bridge underpasses out of 5.
Does it surprise you at all though. It seems like they miss every opportunity to support Warlord and fix his issues.
Great post though, I thoroughly enjoyed it!
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Does it surprise you at all though. It seems like they miss every opportunity to support Warlord and fix his issues.
Great post though, I thoroughly enjoyed it!
At this point I'm fairly sure that someone really hates the Warlord.
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I'm glad they didn't make it 1 War/1 Arcane: it would have been yet another slap in the face to the Warlord.
This is because the designers refuse to believe there should be a Common School, utility spells where every mage is trained in.
Please don't refute the logic of Forge being War 1 Arcane 1 just because of the illogic of Warlord/game design.
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I'm glad they didn't make it 1 War/1 Arcane: it would have been yet another slap in the face to the Warlord.
This is because the designers refuse to believe there should be a Common School, utility spells where every mage is trained in.
Please don't refute the logic of Forge being War 1 Arcane 1 just because of the illogic of Warlord/game design.
I didn't.
If you had read the rest of my post you would have seen why I think they didn't make it 1 Arcane/1 War.
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War for example should be the school for Artifice (the opposite of Nature), hence prevalent in Equipment and Structures. I don't actually like the Fire in Battle Forge because Fire is destructive, not constructive in theme, and it does not synergise with Equipment. I would have made Battle Forge War 1 Arcane 1 because it makes magic items.
I'm glad they didn't make it 1 War/1 Arcane: it would have been yet another slap in the face to the Warlord.
Though I think they made it 1 War/1 Fire since the forge itself requires fire to make the equipment, so mastering the fire aspect of it would be essential to make the shape of the object, with the actual item enchantment being done by the mage and not by the forge.
Incredibly, I did read the whole of your post, even if I only quoted part of it.
Fire is the school of wanton destruction. Not construction. The fact there is fire in the picture is irrelevant. Why not Earth for the steel that you shape with a Forge? It should be Fire because anyone who builds a Forge will be more likely to cast Fireball or Ring of Fire or Fireblast or Flamestorm?
I have always (until now) been in agreement with everything that you have written. Don't mix the fact that they don't have a Common school for all the utility spells with the totally separate fact that making a constructive card Fire is not conducive to strong theme.
Take Magic's Red colour. There is nothing constructive in it. You may diss Magic's colours but at least it's consistent.
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Take Magic's Red colour. There is nothing constructive in it. You may diss Magic's colours but at least it's consistent.
I agree with you in theory, but you chose a poor example. Red does include constructive spells (depending on what your definition of constructive is) and even includes counterspells. Magic includes hundreds of exceptions to the rule, but has a large enough card base that these exceptions don't change the overall feel of a color.
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War for example should be the school for Artifice (the opposite of Nature), hence prevalent in Equipment and Structures. I don't actually like the Fire in Battle Forge because Fire is destructive, not constructive in theme, and it does not synergise with Equipment. I would have made Battle Forge War 1 Arcane 1 because it makes magic items.
I'm glad they didn't make it 1 War/1 Arcane: it would have been yet another slap in the face to the Warlord.
Though I think they made it 1 War/1 Fire since the forge itself requires fire to make the equipment, so mastering the fire aspect of it would be essential to make the shape of the object, with the actual item enchantment being done by the mage and not by the forge.
Incredibly I did read the whole of your post even if I only quoted part of it.
Fire is the school of wanton destruction. Not construction. The fact there is fire in the picture is irrelevant. Why not Earth for the steel that you shape with a Forge. It should be Fire because anyone who builds a Forge will be more likely to cast Fireball or Ring of Fire or Fireblast or Flamestorm?
I have always (until now) been in agreement with what you have written. Don't mix the fact that they don't have a Common school for all the utility spells with the totally separate fact that making a constructive card Fire is not conducive to strong theme.
Take Magic Red colour. There is nothing constructive in it. You may diss magic colours but at least it's consistent.
My argument isn't that someone using a Battle Forge is more likely to cast a Fire spell, or that it would make the Warlord even worse (simply because I expressed that I was glad this isn't so doesn't mean that I'm arguing from that position).
I think that the Battleforge is part fire because actual forges use fire, extensively. (I've been working with a group of blacksmiths for the past few months). Having it be Earth for the iron used in making items wouldn't make sense to me since those are things used by the forge, not what the forge is. The materials for the forging are supplied by the mage, and the forge works with them (using fire as appropriate for metalworking) to produce the finished product.
Also, from the spells we have available so far, every elemental school could be described at destructive. In the water school we have water attacks, dissolve, and Renewing Rain. Aside from that card, it's all destruction and offense, for example. I'm sure that the spells we see in the game will never be fully representative of all of the schools of magic, simply because this game is about defeating the other mage. Fire magic used in cooking, for example, isn't destructive (at least not any more destructive than the fire in a forge), yet we'll never see it because it doesn't help you defeat your opponent in some way. Fire has more uses than just blowing things up or setting things on fire to watch them burn, and I think that should be embraced. Using fire in the game in a way that mirrors how fire is used in real life (and would be used in daily life in Etheria) is, to me, entirely consistent with what fire is. I've always thought that games that view fire as only destructive are selling fire short of all of the awesome things it can do.
As for red in Magic not containing anything constructive, what would you call Agility, Arcane Teachings, Awaken the Ancient, Blood Moon, Braid of Fire, Bravado, Burrowing, Captive Flame, Cave Sense, Chance Encounter, Claws of Valakut, Clout of Dominus, Conquer, Crown of Flames, Crucible of Fire, etc, etc, etc?
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Yeah, I opened a door I shouldn't have with Red in Magic. As Red is also the colour of Haste, Pumping Attack Only (Firebreathing etc), Doube Strike, Artifact destruction, Temporary Change of Control (Madness) etc.
That latter associated effect is an example of how Magic took years to to fine tune the scope of each colour, Ray of Command was a Blue temporary Change of Control but blue had too much utility goodness so they turned it red. Magic made loads of mistakes in the early days, so many Restricted and Banned cards. Mage Wars is a paradigm of consistency for the same age maturity.
Fire has more uses than just blowing things up or setting things on fire to watch them burn, and I think that should be embraced. Using fire in the game in a way that mirrors how fire is used in real life (and would be used in daily life in Etheria) is, to me, entirely consistent with what fire is. I've always thought that games that view fire as only destructive are selling fire short of all of the awesome things it can do.
After consideration, you have won me over to change my position. Not because of theme (a Forge does not create Leather Gloves, Boots, Cloak etc.) as Forge is just a mechanic. More because I like its "Flame Immunity. Hydro +3" traits which does make it hybrid War/Fire.
I do agree about Fire being typecast. Cauterise and Forest Fires are other examples. The D&D Druid specialises in domains from Animal / Plant / Earth / Water / Air / Fire. Latter because Forest Fires are often good for nature. It clears out the deadwood so that Nature can start again (this is not a second edition reference).
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Yeah, I opened a door I shouldn't have with Red in Magic. As Red is also the colour of Haste, Pumping Attack Only (Firebreathing etc), Doube Strike, Artifact destruction, Temporary Change of Control (Madness) etc.
That latter associated effect is an example of how Magic took years to to fine tune the scope of each colour, Ray of Command was a Blue temporary Change of Control but blue had too much utility goodness so they turned it red. Magic made loads of mistakes in the early days, so many Restricted and Banned cards. Mage Wars is a paradigm of consistency for the same age maturity.
Yeah, for the most part Mage Wars feels pretty good with consistency to me. I think the plant creature/plant conjuration thing might be the biggest thing, especially without some in-universe reason for them to be separate categories. (Perhaps plant creatures have at least rudimentary intelligence and/or a soul, which is required for certain spells to work on them, whereas the plant conjurations do not? But then there are references that Mohktari is to some degree sentient as well. And then what about the undead skeletons? Bah!)
After consideration, you have won me over to change my position. Not because of theme (a Forge does not create Leather Gloves, Boots, Cloak etc.) as Forge is just a mechanic. More because I like its "Flame Immunity. Hydro +3" traits which does make it hybrid War/Fire.
I do love the Flame Immunity trait on it. My fiancee plays Warlock a lot, so when I'm Forcemaster I can Charm Adramelech without fear of my conjurations burning to the ground. ;D I haven't seen the Hydro +3 come into play yet, but that's probably just because no one I play with currently uses a water wizard/Druid. I really should start playing a water wizard; Battleforge builds are fairly common with my group.
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I like the explanation of souls for creatures and none for conjurations. There are lots of fantasy sources that cite the reanimating power that fuels undead actually twists and corrupts the soul of the creature, binding it in the corpse like a prison. I see no creatures in the game that could not be described as having a soul.