Force Bash

[Mathias]

Text on card:

Target creature is pushed 1 zone in the direction of your choice.
+3 mana to push through passage attack.
Target receives Slam
If target is pushed in a zone with other creatures, choose one and give it a Slam condition.

Question:
Do flying creatures suffer the passage attack?
Normally they fly over it anyways.
In this case I would say you bash the flying creature through the wall.

Your thoughts?

[Shad0w]

Text on card:

Target creature is pushed 1 zone in the direction of your choice.
+3 mana to push through passage attack.
Target receives Slam
If target is pushed in a zone with other creatures, choose one and give it a Slam condition.

Question:
Do flying creatures suffer the passage attack?
Normally they fly over it anyways.
In this case I would say you bash the flying creature through the wall.

Your thoughts?

Do flying creatures suffer the passage attack?
Nope

+3 mana to push through passage attack.
This basically is stating that if you do not pay the extra mana it will cause a bash not a passage attack. Since flyers do not get bashed except by arena walls, it does not matter if you pay the extra or not.

On a side note a flying creature that is guarding does not have flying till after the guard is removed.

Passage Attacks
All Creatures that move through this wall are automatically attacked by the wall. The attack occurs before the creature moves.

[Teclis]

+3 mana to push through passage attack.
This basically is stating that if you do not pay the extra mana it will cause a bash not a passage attack

Does that mean that the creature suffers a bash (3 dice of unavoidable damage) for hitting the wall, and if you pay an extra 3 mana they are pushed through the wall and receive the passage attack instead?

[Shad0w]

I was still typing when you posted. Look up

[Teclis]

Allright. Thank you.
But what about nonflying creatures? Are they handled like I posted?

[Mathias]

This also means that a flying creature won't be "thrown" at a ground creature and vice versa?

... pretty confusing ...

I'm re-reading the card again and this is what happens:
1) Push
2) passage attack optional
3) Slam
*)thrown against other creature

When does the Slam occur (target creature)? Before or after the 'throwing' part? If a flying creature is Slammed, it would loose it's flying ability and can only hit ground troops.

[Shad0w]

I have not had a chance to read over the final rules for slam

[Arcanus]

Hi All,

The Force Bash pushes and slams one creature into another.

The first part of the spell Pushes a target creature. Handle it just like a Force Push:

If a non-flying creature is Force Pushed it will stop when it hits a wall, if that wall has has the Passage Blocked trait (such as a Wall of Stone, or the outside walls of the arena).  In this case it does get Bashed (3 dice unavoidable attack).

If the same creature is Pushed into a wall with the Passage Attacks trait, it also stops, unless you paid 3 extra mana when you cast the spell. (This represents the spell requiring additional power to Push it through an attacking wall.)  If you pay the extra mana, the creature pushed through the wall.  It receives the attack, and then is moved into the new zone.  If the extra mana was not paid, the creature is not pushed through the wall, and remains in place. (Yes, this may seem a little weird. This rule is there for game balance - wall attacks were too powerful in playtesting without the extra mana requirement.)

Force Push on a flying creature will Push them one zone, and they ignore all walls, except the outside arena walls. They are not bashed or attacked by walls, unless Pushed into the outside arena walls.

So, first handle the Force Push part of the spell, exactly as a Force Push is handled.  Once that it done, then the second part takes place - the Slamming!

The target creature receives the Slam condition.  And, any other other target creature in the new zone it enters may also receive the Slam condition. This occurs after the Force push part, and after the creature is moved into the new zone.

Visualizing this, they are both slammed together and would actually receive the Slam condition at the same time.  That is the spells intent, although mechanically you first place a Slam on the original target creature, then on the second target creature.

If there are no enemy creatures in the new zone, then the spell is effectively slamming them into the floor, and this occurs after they have moved into the new zone.

Yes, it can target a flying creature and Slam him into a non-flying creature, or visa-versa. Again, this occurs after the first creature is Force pushed.  For example, a non-flying creature is first Pushed one zone, then is "raised" and slammed into a flying creature (or visa-versa).

Hope that helps!  Please let us know if you have any further questions.

[Shad0w]

Ty Arcanus I have been busy at work

[gos_jim]

What about Force Bashing an unmoveable creature? I assume they still receive the Slam because that part of the text is not conditional. But what about another creature in the zone they are in (the same zone they were pushed from because they can't be pushed), do I get to "push" an Iron Golem into his Warlord and Slam them both if they're in the same zone?

[Tacullu64]

No, unmovable would still apply and pushing is the effect you are trying to achieve even if the distance is zero.

[Arcanus]

You cannot Push an unmovable creature, so you cannot Push an Iron Golem into another creature to Slam it.

However, even an Unmovable creature can feel some force from a heavy blow.  The rule for Slam says: "Unmovable creatures receive a Daze condition instead of Slam."

So, if another creature was Force bashed into an Iron Goplem, the Iron Golem would be Dazed.

If instead the Force Bash tried to Push an Iron Golem, that part would fail.  The Iron Golem would remain in it's zone, but still be Dazed by the spell.  Since it cannot be Pushed, it would not Slam a second target. In this case, you just spent a LOT of mana to Daze an Iron Golem!

[gos_jim]

OK thank you for that clarification, I had missed that in the rules for Slam about getting Daze instead.

But your response above says that the target doesn't have to be pushed one zone away, and can be slammed into a creature in the same zone. Does that mean I could Force Bash the mage and slam him into his Iron Golem in the same zone, giving the mage Slam and the Iron Golem Daze? Because the spell says to push the target 1 zone. Can I just CHOOSE to not push them to another zone, or does the same zone thing only apply if I were to bash them against a wall or something first, leaving them in the same zone?

[Arcanus]

My apologies gos_jim.  We were working on the official Mage Wars FAQ, and this item just got changed tonight.  You must Push the target at least one zone first before being able to Slam him into another creature.

[gos_jim]

I can't help but be a little disappointed with the clarification of Force Bash in the FAQ. Now how it works appears to be this:

1. Push the creature 1 zone.
2. IF the creature gets pushed 1 zone, then you can Slam them and possibly Slam a new target.

However how the card originally read, the Slam on the original target was not conditional on pushing them 1 zone. It makes sense to me that if I Force Bash you against a wall, you should be Bashed (3 damage), PLUS Slammed. Sure, it makes sense that I can't Slam ANOTHER target (you hit the wall, not another creature), but I don't see why the first target can't be Slammed. He WAS still Pushed, he just hit a wall.

The Iron Golem not being Slammed makes sense to me too, he doesn't move AT ALL so he can't be Slammed. But if you hit a wall it seems like you should still get knocked on your back after being slammed against the wall.

I understand if this was done for balance, but it seems counter-intuitive with the text on the card and thematically.

Edit: I'm similarly disappointed with the clarification on Force Push vs a wall with Passage Attacks. If I don't pay the 3 mana the Push basically does nothing, not even Bashing. I always thought of the Bash damage as "consolation" damage for not pushing them all the way through the wall. Ahh well. Guess I'm just disappointed because I love push spells