Attacking to remove sleep

[jcox2820]

I believe that the rules specifically state that an attacking creature rolls the amount of battledice listed on the attack.

I don't think this is currently legal, but wouldn't it make sense to allow a player to roll fewer dice for an attack on their own creature? This makes sense to me thematically, since a mage would basically be commanding a creature to slap another one around and wake it up. Mechanically it seems sound because the player would be at a higher risk of rolling zero damage, and thus wasting that action.

[Sausageman]

I wouldn't object to that.  Pulling your blow, so to speak.  I've been in a situation where I TWICE inflicted zero damage on a sleeping creature, so I know how annoying that is.....

[Drealin]

The problem mechanically is that some creatures have +-traits.  So if creature A only has a flame attack, and you want to wake up creature B with the Flame +2 trait, and you were allowed to reduce the number of dice rolled, I would say you could roll no fewer than 3 dice.  Because you still have to roll 1 die to do the attack, and you can't ignore the Flame +2 trait.
Also what about Melee +X or Ranged +X?  Can you choose to decrease that modifier as well?
While possible to include rules that would make rolling fewer dice allowed, it may increase the complexity more than being worth it for many players.  Too much realism doesn't always make a game more fun.

[Koy]

I have found Huginn to be my Sleep breaking specialist.  Man do my opponent's seem to hate that little guy... no clue why.  *evade, evade, evade, Dispell, evade, evade, break Sleep, evade*

[jcox2820]

I have found Huginn to be my Sleep breaking specialist.  Man do my opponent's seem to hate that little guy... no clue why.  *evade, evade, evade, Dispell, evade, evade, break Sleep, evade*

He is a truly great card, especially in a control book.

While it's true that this would increase the complexity to *some* degree, I think it would be pretty minimal. Both allowing you to choose the exact number of dice, or one dice + any modifier would be great mechanics that I can see being justified within the theme.

[Arcanus]

Great discussion guys.

We went through a process of general streamlining - removing everything that was not essential or had little impact on game play, in order to make the rules more concise, and the game easier to grasp.  

Removing the ability to roll fewer dice was one of those things. As a designer note - Along with this we removed other things like archer suppression (attacking a creature with a melee attack prevents that creature from making a ranged attack that same round), LoF (Line of Fire - a wall could block LoS but not necessarily LoF, or visa versa, which made for some interesting tactics), and others. I'd like to state for the record that I fought kicking and screaming to keep these things in the game!    (I am expecting hate emails from the playtesters later tonight!)

I must concede that it is certainly quite realistic and feasible to roll fewer attack dice, but currently it is not in the rules.  For whatever it is worth, Sleep was priced with this in mind (that only a small creature or attack can effectively be used to wake creatures up).  Sleep would be a tad cheaper mana-wise if you could voluntarily roll fewer dice.

[jcox2820]

Great discussion guys.

We went through a process of general streamlining - removing everything that was not essential or had little impact on game play, in order to make the rules more concise, and the game easier to grasp.  

Removing the ability to roll fewer dice was one of those things. As a designer note - Along with this we removed other things like archer suppression (attacking a creature with a melee attack prevents that creature from making a ranged attack that same round), LoF (Line of Fire - a wall could block LoS but not necessarily LoF, or visa versa, which made for some interesting tactics), and others. I'd like to state for the record that I fought kicking and screaming to keep these things in the game!    (I am expecting hate emails from the playtesters later tonight!)

I must concede that it is certainly quite realistic and feasible to roll fewer attack dice, but currently it is not in the rules.  For whatever it is worth, Sleep was priced with this in mind (that only a small creature or attack can effectively be used to wake creatures up).  Sleep would be a tad cheaper mana-wise if you could voluntarily roll fewer dice.

I love the fact that devs respond on this forum.

I find it hard to argue against streamlining the game, or doing anything to make the game more newb-friendly. LoF and Archer suppression sound really cool, but I can see how it could increase the learning curb pretty significantly, and frustrate a new player when their opponent uses it to ignore their wall.

One of the things that is apparent in the design process of this game is the desire to make everything as intuitive as possible. Choosing to roll fewer dice seems pretty intuitive to me, but then again I haven't playtested the game for hours on end, and have only seen hardcore gamers play the game for the first time. Ultimately, I imagine it is difficult to determine exactly what mechanics players will grasp quickly and which they wont, so I suppose there is no wrong answer to the question of what mechanics to remove to make a game accessible. It sounds like I would fall on Arcanus' side, but Dreallin's answer reveals a flaw in our arguments, because a larger portion of text would have to be inserted in the rulebook explain how lowering attack dice works when effects modify the amount of attack dice normally rolled. Even if the barest of explanation was put in, which implicitly deals with Drealin's point, I imagine there would still be some confusion.

[Arcanus]

Thanks!

I agree - the playtesters probably made the right choice. I was just working hard for a "gamer's game" mage battle simulation, with as much realism as possible.

Another interesting design note - we almost pulled mandatory enchantments (as part of streamlining).  It was sooooo close. But man - I just LOVE mandatory enchantments like Block and Reverse Attack. The way they work is so cool - having to make tough choices - trying to trigger them with a weaker attack - great tactics!

Back to the topic at hand - you summed it up very well.  Those additional complications with traits like Flame +2 are exactly why the "roll fewer dice" rule was pulled.  Playtesters felt it was just not worth the trouble of all those additional exceptions being explained.

A nice by product of not being able to roll fewer attack dice is that it makes Sleep really interesting!  Some tough choices there if you don't have a Huginn or other small critter handy!

BTW, Drealin is a playtester!

Thanks guys for all the support!

[DarthDadaD20]

I love the fact that devs respond on this forum.

Devs...hell, we have the creator of the game responding to us! I got to say, as a father and a gamer this man Brayn Pope (aka:Arcanus) is a true inspiration to me. I fell like I could try and do something important if he could. They are doing the best job in listing and responding to there fans, and I could see only the best coming from it. Its not only a good strategy for a company but I think they really do care about there game and us for playing it.

[Sausageman]

We went through a process of general streamlining - removing everything that was not essential or had little impact on game play, in order to make the rules more concise, and the game easier to grasp.

I see that a 'Cantrip' effect is being added in the expansion - can I caution you on adding *too* many new keywords in future releases.  I have seen games go in a blaze of glory like this previously, when there are SO many new mechanics that the game becomes an unweildy mess and played only by those who were there from the beginning...

[HeatStryke]

Theres not too many in the next set, less then 5 if I remember right.

The less keyword thing is a drum I beat constantly. (probibly to death)

[Arcanus]

Thank you DarthDadaD20.  

Mage Wars is truly a labor of love.  We made the game to satisfy our own need/desire to play a realistic Mage combat game. I have 3 older sons and we worked on it together.  After we had about 20 college age guys hooked and playing regularly, we knew we had something we should bring to market.

Understood Sausageman! Trust me, all the playtesters, like Heatstryke above, are always pushing to remove excess mechanics, and keep the game streamlined.

We've been working on Mage Wars for over 5 years, and we have a lot of great stuff planned.  We will be careful to not overwhelm too much at once, keeping new mechanics to a minimum.  Here are a few tidbits of things to come:

We will have SWARM creatures (like swarms of bees, ants, and plague rats), which are interesting because when you attack them it only kills one creature in the swarm.  SO they are very tough, except vs. zone attacks which are devastating.

The Illusionist uses face-down markers to track his creatures.  Are they real or Illusionary? Her stronger illusions can fight and behave like a real creature.  Should you waste a turn disbelieving the illusion? Her weaker Illusions just disappear the instant they take damage, but still provide a great decoy.

Some of the Necromancer's creatures feed off the dead, hatching new creatures inside the corpse, or turning them into Undead as well.

The upcoming Paladin has a suit of armor. The individual pieces are great, but it gains extra powers once he has the full suit in place.  And yes, it is extra hard to destroy once its in place. He is an amazing front line fighter.

An Archmage may make it in time for Christmas this year - we'll see. He is powerful enough to take on 3 other Mages at one time.

A dungeon adventure mode where 3-4 Mages work together against the game, with multiple scenarios.

Thanks again for the wonderful support!

[jcox2820]

Thank you DarthDadaD20.  

Mage Wars is truly a labor of love.  We made the game to satisfy our own need/desire to play a realistic Mage combat game. I have 3 older sons and we worked on it together.  After we had about 20 college age guys hooked and playing regularly, we knew we had something we should bring to market.

Understood Sausageman! Trust me, all the playtesters, like Heatstryke above, are always pushing to remove excess mechanics, and keep the game streamlined.

We've been working on Mage Wars for over 5 years, and we have a lot of great stuff planned.  We will be careful to not overwhelm too much at once, keeping new mechanics to a minimum.  Here are a few tidbits of things to come:

We will have SWARM creatures (like swarms of bees, ants, and plague rats), which are interesting because when you attack them it only kills one creature in the swarm.  SO they are very tough, except vs. zone attacks which are devastating.

The Illusionist uses face-down markers to track his creatures.  Are they real or Illusionary? Her stronger illusions can fight and behave like a real creature.  Should you waste a turn disbelieving the illusion? Her weaker Illusions just disappear the instant they take damage, but still provide a great decoy.

Some of the Necromancer's creatures feed off the dead, hatching new creatures inside the corpse, or turning them into Undead as well.

The upcoming Paladin has a suit of armor. The individual pieces are great, but it gains extra powers once he has the full suit in place.  And yes, it is extra hard to destroy once its in place. He is an amazing front line fighter.

An Archmage may make it in time for Christmas this year - we'll see. He is powerful enough to take on 3 other Mages at one time.

A dungeon adventure mode where 3-4 Mages work together against the game, with multiple scenarios.

Thanks again for the wonderful support!

Those sound... beautiful. I'm crying.

Sounds like a lot of people who aspire to make games (<- like this guy) could benefit from learning about how you came to publish this game. Ever thought about maybe a series of videos or something on that?

[DarthDadaD20]

That is great! thank you for letting us in on all of that! I was going to try a kind of- Your mage is a player character and I am the Game master kind of thing...Im glad you are working on that! I was going to use some sort of set goal to be accomplished before X happens system. Me and my friend are going to try and use minis and a map as well. Setting the cards to the side and having the range of spells be x5,(so 0-2 is 0-10, movement would be 5 squares) There is a lot you can do with this game. I haven't been this excised since second edition AD&D.

[Arcanus]

Ha!  Thanks Jcox2820!

I think we will do some article or video on that at some point. There is a lot of interesting and fun facts to share. The co-designer of the game is Benjamin Pope, my eldest son. He has a masters in game programming, and his graduating class from The Guildhall participated in developing the math formulas behind the game. We have over 70 spreadsheets used to help calculate the mana costs!

DarthDadaD20: If you are interested in helping to work on this module of the game give me your email and we can discuss further.  We are always open to input and ideas!