Passage Attacks

[Puddnhead]

So I was rereading the rules recently and came across this entry on page 17 under "Walls":

"Passage Attacks: .... This is a special kind of attack that is neither melee nor ranged, cannot be avoided, and does not trigger any damage barrier or Counterstrike attacks..."
Then in the supplement I found this: "Note that Wall of Pike's attack is not Unavoidable."
For reference: [mwcard=FWW01]Wall of Pikes[/mwcard]
Seems like the supplement is not so much supplementing as overruling here.  Which is correct?

Secondarily, I find that "[A] Climbing Creature may take a special full action to climb over any Corporeal wall and
move into the adjacent zone. If the wall has the Passage Attacks trait, it attacks the creature before it moves. "

Whereas there is no move penalty (other than Wall of Thorns) for just moving through the passage attack wall as a move action and then getting your quick action on the other side.  As if Climbing wasn't useless enough...

TLDR: 1) Shouldn't Wall of Pikes be unavoidable? 2) Climbing needs to save you from passage attacks.

[DaveW]

Just in terms of trying to be "realistic" -- I can see how climbing a wall of thorns would harm the climber, and would find it difficult for anyone to climb a wall of pikes. (What are they going to do, tightrope it down a pike?)

Maybe the whole walls rules / system needs minor revamping?

[bigfatchef]

+1
The only reason to climb is to get out of a death trap zone.

The double penalty is way too much (full action and getting attacked)

[Halewijn]

-1. It makes sense thematically. Climbing is to get somewhere that is normally not accessable. Not to avoid a passage attack. I dont see how you could climb over thorns or spikes.

If anything about climbing should change is that maybe it should hinder you (no double move if climbing) instead of slow. I think that's the real buzzkill for climbing.

[wtcannonjr]

-1. It makes sense thematically. Climbing is to get somewhere that is normally not accessable. Not to avoid a passage attack. I dont see how you could climb over thorns or spikes.

If anything about climbing should change is that maybe it should hinder you (no double move if climbing) instead of slow. I think that's the real buzzkill for climbing.

We could have fast climbers. I.e. the Fast trait in combination with the Climbing trait would allow another move action after climbing. But it would still deny the fast climber a quick action after the second move. This could be added to the Codex under Fast with a reference to Fast under Climbing. It would add another element to strategies that use walls.

[iNano78]

-1. It makes sense thematically. Climbing is to get somewhere that is normally not accessable. Not to avoid a passage attack. I dont see how you could climb over thorns or spikes.

If anything about climbing should change is that maybe it should hinder you (no double move if climbing) instead of slow. I think that's the real buzzkill for climbing.

We could have fast climbers. I.e. the Fast trait in combination with the Climbing trait would allow another move action after climbing. But it would still deny the fast climber a quick action after the second move. This could be added to the Codex under Fast with a reference to Fast under Climbing. It would add another element to strategies that use walls.

Pretty sure Hindered prevents a second move action, even if Fast. And since a Conjuration (Wall) would be the source of the Hindering, it would even Hinder an Elusive creature (similar to Vines and Terrain).

[Puddnhead]

So, I get that grabbing thorns should hurt you, but the Climbing trait indicates to me that it is easier for something to accomplish the difficult feat of actually climbing something.

It doesn't necessarily have to save you from passage attacks, but it should do something to make it actually superior to just walking through the wall.  Currently it is inferior as it takes a full action to climb and a quick action to walk through (except thorns) and you still take the attack no matter which one you choose.

Please at least agree with the issue if not the solution

[Halewijn]

Please at least agree with the issue if not the solution

Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with the issue.  Climbing is designed to get over passage "block" walls and
actually just shouldn't interact with passage attack walls.

It doesn't necessarily have to save you from passage attacks, but it should do something to make it actually superior to just walking through the wall.  Currently it is inferior as it takes a full action to climb and a quick action to walk through (except thorns) and you still take the attack no matter which one you choose.

Well, you'd be the weirdo trying to climb over a painfull wall while you could just as well walk through it. 

[Enti]

I'm not sure if I agree with the issue.

Because improving climbing means that the eagle claw boots get better and walls get worse.

Not sure I like this direction. I think the boots already have their right to exist since they don't only provide climbing but also prohibit that you can get pushed. They are already included in some books (look for example keejchen vs. aridigas in ADMW).

But in theory I agree, it is strange that climbing offers no benefit against walls with the passage attack trait. But the question remains: Should they? (from a balancing point of view)

[Borg]

Please at least agree with the issue if not the solution
Climbing needs to save you from passage attacks.

That would go a bit too far imo..

I'd like to point out that the Conjuration group called "Walls" is somewhat misleading.

There are true "Walls" in there, like Wall of Earth or Wall of Bones, meaning physical structures which usually block passage and then there are conjurations also called "Walls" but which are not truly walls but more immaterial obstacles, like Wall of Fire or Poison Wall or Fog Bank, or material obstacles like Wall of Pikes.

So some conjurations are called walls because they behave like walls ( for playing purposes ) rather than effectively being walls.

Climbing should affect real walls but not these so called walls : thus passage attacks should still attack Climbers.

Shouldn't Wall of Pikes be unavoidable?

I understand that Fire or Poison or Thorn attacks are Unavoidable as it's everywhere around the creature passing through.
Pikes however are different imo and I have no problem with it being avoidable.

So, yes there is an issue
Climbing should be a quick, hindering action.

[iNano78]

I've cast Eagleclaw Boots approximatley 40 times, and I have used Climbing once  (and I recall one other time that in retrospect I should have used Climbing but forgot it was a trait on Eagleclaw Boots). Also, I have never once cast an Ape while using Animal Kinship, and even if there were a Level 1 monkey with the Ape subtype, I still would still be highly unlikely that I'd use the Climbing trait, even if I had other reasons to cast a cheap monkey while I had Animal Kinship(s) in play.

tl/dr: Climbing sucks. Making Climbing slightly better (e.g. so that maybe you consider it 5 times in 100 matches instead of  considering it once or twice before opting not to at all) is unlikely to break Eagleclaw Boots. Climbing, as it stands, is a missed opportunity.

Regarding the thematic considerations, um, this is a game about magic. Presumably the Climbing trait isn't suggesting that you need this special trait to scale a 2 m fence - surely non-magical creatures, including any moderately healthy mage, should be capable of that - but rather allows you to magically ascend and descend over a wall with relatively little effort (although at present it's as hard as casting a Full action spell, even when you have this magical trait).

I could imagine either keeping the trait more-or-less as-is (e.g. takes a Full action) but allowing it to skip the Passage Attacks step, or still triggering Passage Attacks but having it be a quick action where the wall merely Hinders rather than taking a Full action (which is like making you lose Fast and gain Slow)... or both. Maybe you roll a d12 and on 7+ you skip the Passage Attack, or something like that. (e.g. "Don't slip!")

But standard policy seems to be that, unless something is proven to be far too strong (e.g. Battle Fury, Temple of Light, Hand of Bim-Shalla, Wizard, Wizard's Tower) or doesn't work as intended (e.g. Goblin Builder, Gate to Hell, Malacoda, Garrison Post, etc), it doesn't get errata'd.

[iNano78]

That would go a bit too far imo..

I'd like to point out that the Conjuration group called "Walls" is somewhat misleading.

There are true "Walls" in there, like Wall of Earth or Wall of Bones, meaning physical structures which usually block passage and then there are conjurations also called "Walls" but which are not truly walls but more immaterial obstacles, like Wall of Fire or Poison Wall or Fog Bank, or material obstacles like Wall of Pikes.

So some conjurations are called walls because they behave like walls ( for playing purposes ) rather than effectively being walls.

Climbing should affect real walls but not these so called walls : thus passage attacks should still attack Climbers.

Shouldn't Wall of Pikes be unavoidable?

I understand that Fire or Poison or Thorn attacks are Unavoidable as it's everywhere around the creature passing through.
Pikes however are different imo and I have no problem with it being avoidable.

So, yes there is an issue
Climbing should be a quick, hindering action.

Climbing only works on Corporeal walls (see Codex), so Wall of Fire and Wall of Poison Gas and Wall of Force are already excluded for reasons that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Halewijn]

Because improving climbing means that the eagle claw boots get better and walls get worse.

Agreed for mages. I was thinking about creatures. How would you feel if it said "Non-mage creatures can move through a border with a passage block wall. Mages can use a full action to move.... "?

[Borg]

Climbing only works on Corporeal walls (see Codex), so Wall of Fire and Wall of Poison Gas and Wall of Force are already excluded for reasons that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I understand, that's the official rules ... but the suggestion was made in OP to let Climbing ignore Passage Attacks - which Wall of Fire and Wall of Poison Gas have.

Because improving climbing means that the eagle claw boots get better and walls get worse.

I'd think the opposite, that ( corporeal) walls become better as well, as now you have a ( new ) trait ( Climbing ) that synergizes well with them, opening new strategic and tactical options.