Druid: Weak to Fire?

[Reddicediaries]

Ranged Attacks can not target tanglevine.

[iNano78]

Ranged Attacks can not target tanglevine.

Oh, right. Well, you still have Lash and any creatures with Flame melee attacks.

My point can be summarized: Beldin's advice is true for Druid vs any Mage. (Wizard gets cheaper Teleports, but that's about it). If I'm going to choose a Mage knowing I'm up against Druid, it would be Warlock. If I'm playing Druid, the Mage I don't want to see is Warlock. Fire kills plants. I need to divert from my strategy in order to put out Burn markers or otherwise protect my plants more than I would against other mages using other damage types.

[Beldin]

Well, a Warlock doesn't need  to waste a Teleport; a Flameblast will take care of a Tanglevine... as might his Lash (if already equipped).  And similarly for all the other plant creatures and conjurations: they all have Flame +X, so a Warlock is generally going to have an easier time tearing through them than any other Mage, whether it's using Attack spells, creatures with Flame attacks, or melee attacking with a Lash of Hellfire.

To cast the lash that equates to a fireball in mana and actions, and my response is a mage wand(disarm). Also I am very happy to allow the warlock to use up his Range 1 spells in this fashion. This gives him less to chuck at me and my tree.
 

I'm not saying a Druid can't ever beat a Warlock. And a good Druid player will certainly have planned for Fire mages and Deathlock. Overall, a Druid might even be better than 50:50 in that matchup... but she's probably 60:40 against anybody else.

Well, as with all balanced games, we are playing a very complex game of rock:paper:scissors:lizard:spock. I am also not saying the druid is unbeatable and agree she is a solid tier 1 contender in the right hands.

[littlenog]

Rain Cloud

It is a thing.

[Halewijn]

Overall, a Druid might even be better than 50:50 in that matchup... but she's probably 60:40 against anybody else.

I think druid (and necromancer) is often depicted as incredibly strong due to bad play of her foes. If you see a druid, you should adapt your opening and make sure you go for the tree as fast as possible. If you manage to do that, the druid is only a shadow of her former strength. Yes, the tree has regenerate 4, 2 armor and 12 life. But the key in killing the tree is making sure you kill it in 1 or at most 2 rounds. I know that physically getting to the druids tree is very hard, but staying in your corner and allowing the druid to spread her vines will make it nearly impossible to reach/kill the tree. Instead of casting your creatures in your starting zone, you should imo cast them as close to the tree as possible (or use other things than creatures to do the job) Those first couple of rounds are very important for movement.

Nevertheless, I agree that the druid is an amazingly strong mage. 

[jacksmack]

Instead of casting your creatures in your starting zone, you should imo cast them as close to the tree as possible

It always surprises me that people says its faster to run 2 and then summon instead of summoning in corner.

For the creature you summon it takes excately same amount of rounds to get to the other corner.

(BM's quick summon is the exception. And doing this for many rounds vs druid also. But summoning round 1 vs double run and then summon round 2 = same).


When that it said... can you please elaborate on how you kill the tree early.

Is it:

19
Run 2
F/D hawkeye -2
17

26
Reveal hawkeye -1
Move + Fireball -8
Fireball -8
9

Or are there better ways?

[Halewijn]

I didn't mean run 2 and summon but run 3-5 and summon. The difference is that in the beginning the vines are not yet deployed and the druid has not gained full control over the arena yet. After a couple of rounds she will most likely make sure that your creatures are hindered and tanglevined so it becomes more difficult to get closer.

How, depends on the mage. I would probably:

Holy: Get close fast and deploy big guys close by. Preffered flying creatures

Warlords: depending on the book try conquer or any combination of Akiro's hammer, ballista, fireball, hurl boulder. I have multiple books where I include akiro's hammer and fireball purely for druids. I haven't tried this myself but the elephant could destroy it too. Run close, spawn elephant, attack and finish with earth spells.
T1: Run 2 + hammer
T2: use hammer + fireball, if needed a second attack spell.
Another way is to spawn barraks, get a close by (1 zone away) garrison post and use conquer for 8 mana with a spawned goblin. I've done this many many times. It kind of depends on the element of suprise though.
Warlock: Fire spells/ lash without creatures
Siren: No idea
Necromancer: Ignore the tree probably. Turtle battle.
Beastmasters: Get close and spawn big guy (or goat) + attack spell and/or spear/bow. I think they have the hardest time doing this probably.
Wizard: Wizard tower + attack spells or spawn guys and teleport them close by.
Forcemaster: Get close and either galvitar + Force hammer or 2x Force hammer. It's very expensive, but it's worth it.

[iNano78]

I think Sirens need to run a few Fireballs/Flameblasts specifically for Druid match-ups (and any other Hydro Immunity or Hydro -X they might encounter, even if it doesn't have Flame +X). She only pays the standard double for Fire school, and Sirens get a lot of staples at a discount (e.g. Dissolve, Swell, Surging Wave), so I find they're not particularly short on sbp's.

As for other non-Fire Mages, I have very few books that don't include at least 1x Force Hammer because I almost always encounter at least 1 Corporeal Conjuration or Ethereal object that I need it for.

Rain Cloud

It is a thing.

So is Meredia's Blessing, and it's even better than [mwcard=MWBG1J04]Raincloud[/mwcard]. And there's also Extinguish, Cure, Wand of Healing, even the Druid's own [mwcard=DNQ06]Mohktari's Branch[/mwcard].  There are lots of ways to remove Burn tokens.

[Super Sorcerer]

ב"ה

Most druids take at least one animal and not just plants. Steelclaw grizzlies, Timber wolves and Emerald tegus are probably the most common choices.

Rain Cloud

It is a thing.

So is Meredia's Blessing, and it's even better than Rain Cloud. And there's also Extinguish, Cure, Wand of Healing, even the Druid's own [mwcard=DNQ06]Mohktari's Branch[/mwcard].  There are lots of ways to remove Burn tokens. Doesn't do anything for Flame +X getting extra attack dice, though.

Well, removing burns is definitely a nice effect from the raincloud, but I think the more important issue about raincloud is the Flame -2 that it give to all objects in it's zone. None of the other things you mentioned give the trait Flame -2. It sort of negate the flame +2 that plants have, and make your non-plants (such as the mage) quite resistant to fire while in it's zone.

[iNano78]

ב"ה

Most druids take at least one animal and not just plants. Steelclaw grizzlies, Timber wolves and Emerald tegus are probably the most common choices.

Rain Cloud

It is a thing.

So is Meredia's Blessing, and it's even better than Rain Cloud. And there's also Extinguish, Cure, Wand of Healing, even the Druid's own [mwcard=DNQ06]Mohktari's Branch[/mwcard].  There are lots of ways to remove Burn tokens. Doesn't do anything for Flame +X getting extra attack dice, though.

Well, removing burns is definitely a nice effect from the raincloud, but I think the more important issue about raincloud is the Flame -2 that it give to all objects in it's zone. None of the other things you mentioned give the trait Flame -2. It sort of negate the flame +2 that plants have, and make your non-plants (such as the mage) quite resistant to fire while in it's zone.

Meredia's Blessing can remove 1 Burn condition per round (same as Raincloud), heal any living Object by 2 (which is about equivalent to Flame -2 against 1 attack, but also works in rounds when your plant isn't attacked), and doesn't have to be in the same zone as your plant(s). I'm not saying Raincloud isn't good; just that Meredia's Blessing is more versatile, isn't as easily avoided (e.g. your opponent can attack objects that aren't in the same zone as your Raincloud), is easier to protect (e.g. put it far away from the action), costs 2 less mana and 1 less sbp. Of course, you can run both - I do!

Back on topic: Versus any other damage type, you don't need a Raincloud. Versus Fire/Flame, you do. Thus, Fire/Flame is bad for Druids.

Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?

[littlenog]

How do you see the match up going?

If all the druid has is plant spell and the opponent brings 4 fireballs 6 flame blasts some tridents and infernos.

Dispel the Hawkeye your not going to out dispel a Warlock so remove their damage out put.
First thing I do is melt their fire ring.  Fire has a lower damage scale without burns than boulders.
You cannot curse a tree so it doesn't get the normal fire +1.
Melt the mask if it comes out take away the little armor pierce they get.
Melt the lash and make they work to kill your tree with non-fire spells.

5 Dice fireballs when I remove 1 burn a turn is not that appealing.  He can go after the plants but they are such a good sbp value go right ahead.

I rain cloud.  I put on ARMOR.
If he brings out an elemental wand it gets melted.

I'm a druid I have orchids and dispels on tap.

If he is mindlessly tossing attack spells where are his creatures.
1 Guardian Angel is a world of hurt even if the push, pull, or entangle the angel. 
It can be free quit easily.

They have to come within two spaces of tree to nuke that opens them to thorn Lashers and retaliation.
Druids are like Warlords if they want to take a square they can take a square.

[jacksmack]

Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?

I'll argue that druid most favoured matchup beside male priest is the 2 warlocks.

And that sorta implies that i dont think she is weak (enough) to fire.

[iNano78]

Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?

I'll argue that druid most favoured matchup beside male priest is the 2 warlocks.

And that sorta implies that i dont think she is weak (enough) to fire.

First, I think Siren is an easier match-up than probably anything else.

Now, say Druid has initiative. Druid probably starts with bonded Vine Tree and some sort of mana advantage (e.g. Mana Flower or Druid's Leaf Ring (before Tree obviously) or Harmonize on tree or something). Warlock ends Round 1 by double-moving. Turn 2, Warlock QC's Deathlock behind himself, then moves to Druid's NC + Fireball to the Tree.  Maybe Druid thought to QC a Raincloud in the opening phase before the Fireball hit, maybe not. Turn 3 upkeep, Druid can transfer 2 damage from Tree to Mage, but what's the plan to prevent Warlock from killing the Vine Tree this round?
- Wall of Earth? What if Warlock plans Force Hammer + Fireball, where the Force Hammer takes out the Wall before Fireballing the Tree? Yes, the Warlock uses a lot of mana and sbp's to take down your tree this way, but a Druid is very weak without Treebond.
- OK, how about Teleport the Warlock away and Tanglevine him? If he didn't opening-QC Astral Anchor in his own zone to prevent Teleport, then next round he probably has Dispel (for Druid's Astral Anchor) and Teleport.
- Guardian Angel? There are lots of ways around a Guard (Knockdown, Shrink, Tanglevine, Sleep).

At best, Druid is keeping Warlock away and continuing to transfer damage from Tree to Mage, and if/when Warlock gets back within striking range of the tree, there will be 4 or 6 damage on the Druid as a head-start. It's unlikely the Druid can both protect the Tree AND take out Deathlock before significant damage is done.

I haven't entirely thought this through, but this is just an outline of how a Warlock might approach a Druid. I'm sure I've made mistakes, and I'm sure a Druid has a few other options. But those options would be available against every other Mage, too, and those other Mages aren't as likely to be armed with Fireballs. I don't see how this is an easier match-up for the Druid than the other 11 non-Warlock non-Priest Mages.

[jacksmack]

The plan is to start doing the vicory dance.

The warlock spend 9 mana on deathlock... this hits the warlock also - in particular the Arraxian crown warlock who can no longer benefit properly from blood reaper.
But even the Adramelech Warlock can also heal when attacking a creature with a burn with the new mask.
Both of them has Death link often.

Then the warlock spend 8 mana on a fireball and the tree aint dead yet (or you mean 2?). To be honost im not even gonna bother transfering damage to the druid.
Instead ill just make sure that i use the mana that is on the tree and accept that my mage will be deploying the plants from now on with a discount of 1 (ring) but still the option of using vines.
I would never even consider going for deathlock.

My druid opening is more or less always Ring and Vine tree.
This leaves the possibility of Guardian angel + Defend in round 2 which is not a bad move vs a double moving warlock - but i probaly wouldnt bother with the defend but rather get a flower out.
Again.. spend second fireball? fine with me - tree has to die then.

If he uses double fireball and deathlock and has initative round 2 then we are back to that i have to defeat him/her with mana advantage.

Remember that bleeds are difficult to remove when deathlock is in play. And thats a big part of the druids counter to aggro books - Start pulling them through bloodspine walls get some bleeds and pierce 2 attacks going.

[littlenog]

Is anybody here trying to argue that Druids are just as good against Fire/Flame as they are against any other particular Mage/damage type?

I'll argue that druid most favoured matchup beside male priest is the 2 warlocks.

And that sorta implies that i dont think she is weak (enough) to fire.

First, I think Siren is an easier match-up than probably anything else.

Now, say Druid has initiative. Druid probably starts with bonded Vine Tree and some sort of mana advantage (e.g. Mana Flower or Druid's Leaf Ring (before Tree obviously) or Harmonize on tree or something). Warlock ends Round 1 by double-moving. Turn 2, Warlock QC's Deathlock behind himself, then moves to Druid's NC + Fireball to the Tree.  Maybe Druid thought to QC a Raincloud in the opening phase before the Fireball hit, maybe not. Turn 3 upkeep, Druid can transfer 2 damage from Tree to Mage, but what's the plan to prevent Warlock from killing the Vine Tree this round?
- Wall of Earth? What if Warlock plans Force Hammer + Fireball, where the Force Hammer takes out the Wall before Fireballing the Tree? Yes, the Warlock uses a lot of mana and sbp's to take down your tree this way, but a Druid is very weak without Treebond.
- OK, how about Teleport the Warlock away and Tanglevine him? If he didn't opening-QC Astral Anchor in his own zone to prevent Teleport, then next round he probably has Dispel (for Druid's Astral Anchor) and Teleport.
- Guardian Angel? There are lots of ways around a Guard (Knockdown, Shrink, Tanglevine, Sleep).

At best, Druid is keeping Warlock away and continuing to transfer damage from Tree to Mage, and if/when Warlock gets back within striking range of the tree, there will be 4 or 6 damage on the Druid as a head-start. It's unlikely the Druid can both protect the Tree AND take out Deathlock before significant damage is done.

I haven't entirely thought this through, but this is just an outline of how a Warlock might approach a Druid. I'm sure I've made mistakes, and I'm sure a Druid has a few other options. But those options would be available against every other Mage, too, and those other Mages aren't as likely to be armed with Fireballs. I don't see how this is an easier match-up for the Druid than the other 11 non-Warlock non-Priest Mages.

A Siren with only Water Attacks and no creatures maybe.