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Author Topic: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)  (Read 38894 times)

Halewijn

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2016, 11:25:03 AM »
There is an alternative explanation that doesn't assume Arcane Wonders to have had a moment of uncharacteristic stupidity while designing multiple mages. If they had made this mistake only once or twice then that would be different. But this particular aspect of Mage abilities has happened enough times to make me think it's intentional. Aaron is not an idiot, and IMO the only design mistake he made which was blindingly obvious in retrospect was giving straywood quicksummoning and johktari fast. Therefore there is a reason for certain abilities to only work for certain matchups.

I think Aaron is a very talented designer, but still, I think most people agree that the warlord abilities could have been a lot better. Forcemaster vs Warlord was the first expansion of Mage Wars and it had multiple flaws apart from the ability card. Guess when Johktari and the Priest (and wizard tower) were released? In the second expansion. I think it's pretty clear the expansions have been getting better each time. And personally I currently find Conquest of Kumanjaro the worst expansion. (Apart from those very awesome intercepters and a few other cards.  ::) )

The best examples are academy from this year. While they seem pretty useless for Arena at first sight, it contains many hidden gems in those expansions and I was quite suprised by it. Druid vs Necro was a LOT better than the previous two expansions and Forged in Fire fixed most of the errors in Forcemaster vs Warlord. Paladin vs Siren also seems to be incredible and fresh at first sight.

My point is: Maybe due to better playtesters, maybe due to more experience or another reason altogether, but the quality has been rising every single time. The fact that some of us criticise some mages does not mean we think Aaron, AW or other designers are idiots.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 03:24:47 PM by Halewijn »
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2016, 01:14:43 PM »
Lastly to the Priest, for me he should have 10 channel if it anyway change, one could then change the ability to place a burn to 2 mana if it is felt too good, but thatway he isnt force to place those 1mana cheeper burns always . The Priestess or Paladin are just always the better choice. I know that one can build working priest books, even more good players. But honest question to Shark, Coshade, and whoever plays the priest. Why wouldn't be the Priestess the better choice? As i had feared on playtest Paladin is just better choice still.
I am not breaking down the abilities now, but he doesnt do anything really better than the others, its not that bad anymore with bow and dazzle and blast but still rather play one of the others for better training or other ability and more channel

If the priest at least had battleskill with 9 channel that would also work.

Of note: I've played using the priest significantly more than the paladin, and am nowhere close to the skill level with the priest as Coshade. That being said:

Everyone seems to be assuming that the HA is only affecting the game when the HA gains the Melee+2/Piercing+1. I find this premise to be false. The HA can be used to force your opponent into making bad decisions for which you can plan and counter. An example (and this is only one example, of which there are many that I've found) - You have a HA Crusader Griffin with White Cloak Knight and Knight of Westlock as buddies. Your opponent has to choose a threat to deal with. The threat of the Griffin rolling 7 dice + Piercing 1 is high enough to make one consider attacking the Griffin. However, the Griffin's both extra tough (life +5) and flying so it's really easy to be put in a bad position trying to kill it.

Haven't yet Tried crusade griffin, which is finally a flyer worth an avenger but all other HA the priestess could for the same mana just cast the next bigger (asyran defender HA vs a KOW). Priestess just has 3 mana more to use in investment in the first three turns (where it is extremly unlikely to use the burn ability already). Whenever you don't use your Burn you lose more vs a Priestess.

Even the griffin costs 17 mana for Optional (twice with charge and HA pierce 1) flying and 2/14. For 16 mana i can have as priestess a KoW with an optional Knights courage for the same potential dice (but granted 5 vs maybe 3/5/7) [flying vs defense, life vs armor]. And during all that time the priestess did channel more. HA is quite nice on the Griffin, but Mana and power effective the priestess is still better. And I do not consider her abilities here really.

In your example you have a KoW a white cloak kingth and a HA griffin vs a priestess with White cloak KoW KoW with knights courage and during those minimum of 4 turns (total cost) the priestess has a 5mana advantage and 1 action less (due to enchanting). Which for example is already an agony just removing the HA attack bonus already, or she can also just have a griffin with bearstrength and bulls endurance instead (more actions needed) but only 1 mana short till the minimum time you can have all those and non optional buff like HA. So every turn from now on still play more to priestess as she just channels more. As stated I am not saying the priest in general is bad, but Priestess is just the better option.

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2016, 03:02:30 PM »
I enjoy this clash of  cultures or rather "schools" or "paths" of the mage wars 😀

There i So much behind this discussion while everything is in civil borders of discussion that if we were OSN, wars and Hunger will be in history books and some really stupid and bad people on their way to colonize sun.

Halewjin point out a very important thing and thats how quality with each expansion is rising. From good trough very good to  Pure awesomness :) lets také a moment and appreciate all those great minds of designéra and playtesters (except me, i just argue with everyone about wording :) )

This remainds mě a little bít pre-wizard nerf discussion. Je is not OP, je is beatable but now in reverse. He is not bad, He is playable. I love all mages but while building anything for Priest, i ended up with priestess instead :)
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2016, 03:42:31 PM »
I enjoy this clash of  cultures or rather "schools" or "paths" of the mage wars 😀

There i So much behind this discussion while everything is in civil borders of discussion that if we were OSN, wars and Hunger will be in history books and some really stupid and bad people on their way to colonize sun.

Halewjin point out a very important thing and thats how quality with each expansion is rising. From good trough very good to  Pure awesomness :) lets také a moment and appreciate all those great minds of designéra and playtesters (except me, i just argue with everyone about wording :) )

This remainds mě a little bít pre-wizard nerf discussion. Je is not OP, je is beatable but now in reverse. He is not bad, He is playable. I love all mages but while building anything for Priest, i ended up with priestess instead :)

just for the priest not sure if I am allowed to say it but I do it: There were cards in discussion for PvS nice for the Priest only or mainly which may give him more flavor. Those were just not very thematically for the Paladin but they will pop up at some other stage. So yes the game changes with every expansion and becomes more. What I had pointed out is still as long as you only use Holy Avanger Priestess is just better, so what is necessary is a good use of those burns (some interaction) if the priest itself is not changed. It will come within time, of course I'd love a channel 10 change, but if creatures and spells directly interacting with his abilities it can work too. Just creating cards only usable for a single mage (again on a competetive level) is probably not good either as hard as all the card selecetion for the sets are anyway. But honestly for how complex the game it is quite good balanced in general.

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2016, 05:43:13 PM »
Because you asked here is a response. I usually don’t like to respond to these types of threads because they start on a premises that there is an imbalance, rather than exploring why there is a difference between similar mages. Just to note I don’t agree that the BMs, Warlords need to be changed or the holy mages. If I were to change the Priest I could see channeling 10 for a 2 mana burn ability. Honestly I don’t think that change would actually do anything to buff him in any significant way though.

Priest vs Priestess - Both of these mages IMO are meant to played for the long game. In general I consider the Priest to be a dual-action mage. While the Priestess mainly focuses on defense and survival. What I define as dual action here is the ability to make a move that is both defensive and offensive in it’s nature of the action.
--------------------------------------------------Side Tangent-------------------------------------------------------
The most common mistake I see players make for the Priest is going Battle Forge, a KOW HA and maybe another creature, and I also see those players bang their head against a wall to try and make it work.
Ironically I actually think the Priestess is better with a few buddies and Battle Forge. This is probably why most people assume the Priestess is better. The ability to support creatures within a timing window is perfect for her condition removal ability.
---------------------------------------------------Side Tangent Over ------------------------------------------------
If we assume both mages are supposed to go for the long game here are my observations.
Typically late game my board is channeling 13 mana (14 if Priestess), and my goal is to have my mage survive with low armor and mass healing while my creatures do the damage.  Just a note my maximum mana to use is up to 14 on my Priest, I don't rely that on happening though so I make my assumptions on lowering it. This is because of Meditating Monk

The Priest
Holy Punch - This is the most overlooked ability for the Priest. I’m not talking about the burn. It’s the chance to daze without any more investment than a quick action! If you get rushed, having an innate daze ability is amazing for shuting them down. Something I appreciate about the Priest is the dual nature of his melee attack. It’s a theme I hope to discuss in a number of ways. In this example you don’t have to spend spellbook points and mana to gain that daze chance you want. Granted Akiro’s Favor is usually what I use to guarantee that daze, but arguably I find it more useful than equipping the Staff of Asyra specifically because of the mana required. The Priestess spending mana on temporary spells like Luminous Blast vs the Priest’s fist is a justification of how she may have more channeling, but may not have more mana on the board.
Holy Avenger -To replicate HA you would have to spend a ton of extra actions and spellbook points. Bear Strength and Bulls Endurance are great to replicate the ability, but 1 action vs 3 and an extra 4 spellbook points is super costly. If we say that an action is worth roughly 2 mana (dissolve and dispel vs crumble and disperse) it would cost the Priestess 4 extra mana to replicate the effect and that is before spending the mana to cast the spell. Suddenly that extra channeling is being wasted (granted the effects are different, bulls is not as good and bear is contingently better). That is on top of the fact that I prefer HA for level 1 and rarely level 2 creatures which means it’s wrapped up in a nice mana saving present. My conclusion here is that the Priestess has more mana in total, but the Priest can come out ahead with total value on the field. Also you can see the buff theme here as consistent of the dual-action archetype. It is both offensive and defensive as opposed to the Pirestess purely defensive nature in her abilities.
Burning Heretics - Once you get to late game, the Priest’s burn/daze punch is one of my favorite tools. You can eliminate their way of dealing damage to you, while slowly cripping their strategy. I would say the Priest has the best melee or ranged attack potential because of the dual action effect (again a theme here like HA). It is actually correct in a lot of ways as Priest to get offensive to attempt to shut down their offensive capabilities. This is something no other mage can replicate and is purely unique to the Priest.

The Priestess has an innate mana advantage and can therefore afford to take some higher level pieces of equipment. Mainly I would take the Staff of Asyra since I would want that daze melee, or use attack spells to replicate the daze. I would like to note that in my experience you shouldn’t take different creatures necessarily based on channeling alone.

Tl:dr - Priest is better at getting to the long game, while Priestess is better for supporting her creatures at that point. They are not similar as the Priest is a dual-action type mage, while Priestess’s abilities are defensive.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 05:44:44 PM by Coshade »
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2016, 06:38:48 PM »
Here here!!! Well said Coshade! Agreed in all fronts. Personally i think the priest is awesome and many folks have issues with him based on the assumption that the priestess can do it better, usualy because of the channeling difference. They claim that the priest is weak because his HA is weaker than using a bigger creature that cost more mana in the forest place then buffing it with spells. The thing about the HA is that you cannot remove those buffs. Enchantments can be dispelled, but an HA marker, much like a pet marker, can't be removed and if nothing else it's the biggest life buff in the whole game (that's permanent. Restore has dissipate).
Yeah you have to pay for the out of school stuff and that adds up quicker in holy than it does in dark or nature. That's being tempered by current releases. I still think the priest rocks, and ill play a priest against any other mage and not feel bad about my ability to win. It's all in how you get there.
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2016, 09:02:27 PM »
Side note for kelanen: i would take an AC warlock to a tournament over 3/4 of the existing mages. You guys put way too much of a match's result on the mage instead of on the player, in my opinion.

Not meaning to shoot anyone down here,  but i don't think you guys are giving players enough credit

Not at all - I completely agree that a good player with a bad mage will beat a bad player with a good mage. But with two equal players the better mage will win - why handicap yourself? I go into a tournament taking the best I possibly can, so even the 2nd best is not good enough, let alone the 25th percentile, even if I agreed with that.

But there is no such thing as "equal" players, just as there is no such mage that is better than every other mage in each situation that can arise. Taking the best you can just means taking the mage that you personally play best with, not that it's better across the board. Inherently, that comes down to the player, not the mage.
Lets not get carried away here.

You and I both have been at fault, a couple times at least, for making some mage either stronger or weaker. There have definetly been mages that have allowed me to beat much stronger players.

I think you're maybe looking at this from the perspective of a very strong tactical player, with excellent predictive judgement and attention to detail.

I'm a B level player at best (occasional small tournament wins, etc), so I know that if I'm stomping a top tier opponent it's not my play skill that's carrying the day. It was probably my spellbook and mage choice.

There have, in the past, been mages that were just plain better than the alternative. There's a reason Forcemaster and Wizard got errata.

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Having said that, I have a message for anyone who thinks they've solved the current metagame. Buckle up, buttercup.
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2016, 09:28:02 PM »
My biggest problem with the HA is the fact that it's so dependent on the opponent doing very specific things and you having enough actions to make sure your HA is in position to utilize its bonus. Otherwise it's just a generic creature that you've paid extra mana for extra life for and if that was the case, it's just better to get a better creature out.

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2016, 10:43:19 PM »
Okay then. Make attacking the avenger a bad idea...and then you get your use out of it.
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2016, 03:17:57 AM »
Because you asked here is a response. I usually don’t like to respond to these types of threads because they start on a premises that there is an imbalance, rather than exploring why there is a difference between similar mages. Just to note I don’t agree that the BMs, Warlords need to be changed or the holy mages. If I were to change the Priest I could see channeling 10 for a 2 mana burn ability. Honestly I don’t think that change would actually do anything to buff him in any significant way though.

Priest vs Priestess - Both of these mages IMO are meant to played for the long game. In general I consider the Priest to be a dual-action mage. While the Priestess mainly focuses on defense and survival. What I define as dual action here is the ability to make a move that is both defensive and offensive in it’s nature of the action.
--------------------------------------------------Side Tangent-------------------------------------------------------
The most common mistake I see players make for the Priest is going Battle Forge, a KOW HA and maybe another creature, and I also see those players bang their head against a wall to try and make it work.
Ironically I actually think the Priestess is better with a few buddies and Battle Forge. This is probably why most people assume the Priestess is better. The ability to support creatures within a timing window is perfect for her condition removal ability.
---------------------------------------------------Side Tangent Over ------------------------------------------------
If we assume both mages are supposed to go for the long game here are my observations.
Typically late game my board is channeling 13 mana (14 if Priestess), and my goal is to have my mage survive with low armor and mass healing while my creatures do the damage.  Just a note my maximum mana to use is up to 14 on my Priest, I don't rely that on happening though so I make my assumptions on lowering it. This is because of Meditating Monk

The Priest
Holy Punch - This is the most overlooked ability for the Priest. I’m not talking about the burn. It’s the chance to daze without any more investment than a quick action! If you get rushed, having an innate daze ability is amazing for shuting them down. Something I appreciate about the Priest is the dual nature of his melee attack. It’s a theme I hope to discuss in a number of ways. In this example you don’t have to spend spellbook points and mana to gain that daze chance you want. Granted Akiro’s Favor is usually what I use to guarantee that daze, but arguably I find it more useful than equipping the Staff of Asyra specifically because of the mana required. The Priestess spending mana on temporary spells like Luminous Blast vs the Priest’s fist is a justification of how she may have more channeling, but may not have more mana on the board.
Holy Avenger -To replicate HA you would have to spend a ton of extra actions and spellbook points. Bear Strength and Bulls Endurance are great to replicate the ability, but 1 action vs 3 and an extra 4 spellbook points is super costly. If we say that an action is worth roughly 2 mana (dissolve and dispel vs crumble and disperse) it would cost the Priestess 4 extra mana to replicate the effect and that is before spending the mana to cast the spell. Suddenly that extra channeling is being wasted (granted the effects are different, bulls is not as good and bear is contingently better). That is on top of the fact that I prefer HA for level 1 and rarely level 2 creatures which means it’s wrapped up in a nice mana saving present. My conclusion here is that the Priestess has more mana in total, but the Priest can come out ahead with total value on the field. Also you can see the buff theme here as consistent of the dual-action archetype. It is both offensive and defensive as opposed to the Pirestess purely defensive nature in her abilities.
Burning Heretics - Once you get to late game, the Priest’s burn/daze punch is one of my favorite tools. You can eliminate their way of dealing damage to you, while slowly cripping their strategy. I would say the Priest has the best melee or ranged attack potential because of the dual action effect (again a theme here like HA). It is actually correct in a lot of ways as Priest to get offensive to attempt to shut down their offensive capabilities. This is something no other mage can replicate and is purely unique to the Priest.

The Priestess has an innate mana advantage and can therefore afford to take some higher level pieces of equipment. Mainly I would take the Staff of Asyra since I would want that daze melee, or use attack spells to replicate the daze. I would like to note that in my experience you shouldn’t take different creatures necessarily based on channeling alone.

Tl:dr - Priest is better at getting to the long game, while Priestess is better for supporting her creatures at that point. They are not similar as the Priest is a dual-action type mage, while Priestess’s abilities are defensive.

Totally dissagree, I tell you if you bring up the channel that high with priest you go for a ultra long game. As said if you go HA for lvl 1 and lvl 2 creatures you are no better of than just casting a lvl 3 non HA as the priestess (as i said, cleric-> defender/Whitelcoak, defender-Kow,...).

You are really talking about a 1/3 daze change for a 1/2 miss on the daze roll, So for 1/6 chance to daze you use your valid full action to do it? I rather have luminous blast then, its very likely to kill after all, else I will have to use this melee always. Of course I grant that a general thought the normal melees shouldnt be underestimated.

" Honestly I don’t think that change would actually do anything to buff him in any significant way though."

Of course it does cause any round you don't use your burn ability (so minimum the first three rounds you have an extra mana. This changes a lot.

On the extra Spellpoints of bear strength and so on you are right (assuming lvl 3 above HA else just go for the higher lvl creature as priestess). But you need wand(s) of healing as a priest

As stated I don't feel that any of the mages are really too weak to be competetive, but Priestess-> priest

Lastly by having 10/2 for burn it wouldn't be such a disavatnage vs the adramalech warlock were you can't really use your ability.

I know i think the game much more theoretical and mathematical, but from a competetive point of view I am totally pursuaded by my point. And it doesnt mean I can't build good Priest books, but the Priestess would be better of.

But I don't think it is a must change, in such big card pools there will be some cards that are just the weaker option than another on a competetive level. I see many play the game much more causual. What I feel is the best is to avoid such weakness in further sets (card, mage,... basis), that's one goal for me as playtester. That is why i often poke on a single life or 1mana cost to make subpar cards closer to be playable at a competetive level.... Very mathmatical but necessary, lately with all my playtesting in board game ratings I reached a level where I intentionally try to find flaws in the games, or imbalances, and if it is only turnorder (classic 4 player table you are 3 times ahead of the other player and 1 time behind or otherway round, or have double "initiative"
if turnorder and start player token go clock and counterclockwise,...) or other such effects determined turn order by a weaker player not competing for victory anymore but having indirect king making.....

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2016, 05:07:25 AM »
Making Priest "War Mage" might give him a little extra, and make him more of a melee mage.

I guess you could improve his melee attack a bit also.

Theres no point in making him more like the Priestess. We still want him to be a "battle mage" ?



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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2016, 05:33:29 AM »
10 channeling would not change him into a priestess. Simply a priest that can pay for his abilities and is not constantly mana starved.
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2016, 06:52:30 AM »
Malakais Supervision - each time you or creature under your control makes a holy attack that deal damage to target object, you may pay 1 mana and place Burn condition on the target of this spell. Every object in the Arena can be target of this ability once per round.

Just an idea. I promise i will not react more on Priest unless it would be clarifing, helpful or have another 10 new matches with Priest against anybody :)
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2016, 10:09:03 AM »
The Arraxian Crown warlock is NOT lower tier, he's a very strong mage and you would be wise not to underestimate him.

I said mediocre - he's middling tier. I've never lost a tournament match against him (actually, I'm not sure I've lost a match against him).

He's not at the bottom, he's not at the top. If you ant to use the standard MtG tiers he's Tier 2 - honourable mention, but not what you'd ever consider taking into a tournament with £5000 on the line.
Arraxian Crown Warlock made second place in the German Nationals this year, and there were a lot of Priestesses and Druids and Necros there. And it was one of the biggest MageWars tournaments worldwide (with 32 Participants). So I don't think he's really weaker than the so called top tier mages. I feel he's constantly being underestimated.
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2016, 05:13:31 AM »
Wow ths thread has gotten huge!

As mentioned in the opening post I am not trying force some errata. Actually in this discussion I learned a lot.

It was never that clear to me, that Aggro-Mages have only channeling 9 due to their free melee attack.
I do now also have a very clear picture about the different kinds of abilities. They got summoned up pretty good.
And I learned a lot about tactics.
All i all a usefull thread in my eyes.

Warlock:
I never had doubt he is strong.

Priest:
I always underestimated the tactical worth of that eventual HA-attack-bonus. (make it a bad idea to hit the Anvenger). And 5 life is a good deal for 3 (level2) mana, even without further bonus.
Anyway I feel that the priest is always mana starved for the things he wants/needs to do. And for a long game Priestess is definately always better.
I wonder if he would play different with channeling 10. I guess not. I would still burn for only 1.

BM:
Straywood needs no change!! He is strong and competitive.
The reason I would change him ist to change Johktari and not loose any ability. It would simply be easy to handle.
The main thing is Johktaris wounded prey and strange fast/range+1 combo. Last got a bit better with Kajarah. If wounded prey would work for mage as well it would be awsome (but maybe too strong).
The theme here seems to be "take one creature out after another".But it is useless against tank or nonliving.
-> I don't know. If wounded prey would be better their would be strategies findable to play fast/ranged+1.

Warlords:
Maybe battle orders have to be seen as nice sideeffect. Really to use only if both cards were wrong, or some surprise moment when one is actually helpful.
Anvil Throne is strong as is. No need to change anything in my eyes.
Bloodwave has vet-token problems. And as I read it we all kind of agree on that. (we do not agree if it needs to be changed, but that is not the point)

So coming back to the actual quastion:
for houseruling funplay: What smallest possible changes would level those 3 obviously weaker mages out?
Priest: buff HA and burn or channel 10?
Johktari: switch fast/quicksummoning with straywood (and have impact on him as well) or make wounded prey work on mage or better idea?
Bloodwave: vet tokens for 2 mana when soldier summoned? And vet get also ranged+1?

P.S.:
I absolutely agree on how well designed the whole game is. All in all the balance is very good since there are so different playstyles and possibilities. It is amazing how this works out!!
I am really not trying to offend someone here. This is why I just asked about tips for a fun houseruling. I love the priest and Johktari and would simply love to see them in a better position.