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Author Topic: Is the arena wizard still OP?  (Read 75677 times)

Halewijn

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2016, 11:48:26 AM »
I really like some of your idea's Inano.

Maybe triple for non-arcane cards that give armor +x is not bad... I also still like triple for the opposed elemental school since their would be a much bigger difference between water and fire wizards.

@Vulcan: Triple for nature since he's a nerd and never goed outside to actually create a bond for nature. Yes, he studies dead or caged animals or plants in a pot for science, but this does not allow him to connect with nature. The beastmasters and the druid have a very deep connection with nature and are as a result good in nature magic.

Triple for war (apart from armor) seems weirder to me. I can understand that he's not the best general with charisma, but opposed to that, he does have great tactical insight. 

he'd love to hear suggestions from the experts... all this a little over 2 years ago.  An interesting read at the very least.

Yeah, I also don't understand that this has been taking so long. I mean, it has been obvious for years that there are serious problems with the wizard. How hard can it be?

- give some penalties on spellbook creation
- Remove ethereal on the zap. (it is thematic, but it just destroys the use of all incorporeal cards)
- Seriously nerf the tower

Voila,  90% of all wizard frustrations are fixed.  >:(
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2016, 12:15:49 PM »

Yeah, I also don't understand that this has been taking so long. I mean, it has been obvious for years that there are serious problems with the wizard. How hard can it be?

- give some penalties on spellbook creation
- Remove ethereal on the zap. (it is thematic, but it just destroys the use of all incorporeal cards)
- Seriously nerf the tower

Voila,  90% of all wizard frustrations are fixed.  >:(

What penalties? How to nerf the tower?  The above quotation contains no actual fixes.  There are, even in this thread alone, 3-4 different suggestions for how to fix spellbook points for the Wizard.  There are at least 3-4 different suggestions floating around for how to fix Wizard's Tower.

Which one is correct?  How much testing can be done while working on other sets and trying to update everything that needs updating?

It is also entirely possible that the first attempt to fix the Wizard was to increase the card pool in a way that would bring balance.  Increasing the card pool hasn't worked as well.

I think the classic problem of not enough hands to get the work done is contributing to a large portion of the perceived slowness.

And now, we've all been told that the Wizard complaints are being attended to.  More yelling isn't going to make it happen faster.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2016, 12:43:47 PM »

Yeah, I also don't understand that this has been taking so long. I mean, it has been obvious for years that there are serious problems with the wizard. How hard can it be?

- give some penalties on spellbook creation
- Remove ethereal on the zap. (it is thematic, but it just destroys the use of all incorporeal cards)
- Seriously nerf the tower

Voila,  90% of all wizard frustrations are fixed.  >:(

What penalties? How to nerf the tower?  The above quotation contains no actual fixes.  There are, even in this thread alone, 3-4 different suggestions for how to fix spellbook points for the Wizard.  There are at least 3-4 different suggestions floating around for how to fix Wizard's Tower.

Which one is correct?  How much testing can be done while working on other sets and trying to update everything that needs updating?

It is also entirely possible that the first attempt to fix the Wizard was to increase the card pool in a way that would bring balance.  Increasing the card pool hasn't worked as well.

I think the classic problem of not enough hands to get the work done is contributing to a large portion of the perceived slowness.

And now, we've all been told that the Wizard complaints are being attended to.  More yelling isn't going to make it happen faster.

There will always be many ideas what should be changed or nerfed. We alreaedy have a poll about that here: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=15896.0
We have been told that a solution will come since years, so I guess trust in this words are broken here.

It would need Laddinface and all other ArcaneWonders guys one collected view on those threads and Ideas to announce a proposal change (maybe chosen from all ideas). They should take advantage of the knowledge in this forum if they don`t have enough manpower.
That proposal should not be discussed but tested for a good amount of times with feedback written down.
If needed there could be a changed proposal some months later and than it is done.

Halewijn

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2016, 01:01:07 PM »

Yeah, I also don't understand that this has been taking so long. I mean, it has been obvious for years that there are serious problems with the wizard. How hard can it be?

- give some penalties on spellbook creation
- Remove ethereal on the zap. (it is thematic, but it just destroys the use of all incorporeal cards)
- Seriously nerf the tower

Voila,  90% of all wizard frustrations are fixed.  >:(

What penalties? How to nerf the tower?  The above quotation contains no actual fixes.  There are, even in this thread alone, 3-4 different suggestions for how to fix spellbook points for the Wizard.  There are at least 3-4 different suggestions floating around for how to fix Wizard's Tower.

Which one is correct?  How much testing can be done while working on other sets and trying to update everything that needs updating?

It is also entirely possible that the first attempt to fix the Wizard was to increase the card pool in a way that would bring balance.  Increasing the card pool hasn't worked as well.

I think the classic problem of not enough hands to get the work done is contributing to a large portion of the perceived slowness.

And now, we've all been told that the Wizard complaints are being attended to.  More yelling isn't going to make it happen faster.

I know these are no solutions, I just meant they should discuss it, test it and pick one. It has been going on for years and there have been suggested dozens of decent changes.

A sub-optimal fast solution is much better than an optimal solution in another 3 years.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2016, 01:17:00 PM »
A sub-optimal fast solution is much better than an optimal solution in another 3 years.
No offense, but i sincerely disagree with this. It'll just cause the same problem years down the line. I'd rather take the time to get it right.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2016, 01:40:40 PM »
A sub-optimal fast solution is much better than an optimal solution in another 3 years.
No offense, but i sincerely disagree with this. It'll just cause the same problem years down the line. I'd rather take the time to get it right.

100% this. I'd rather them get it right however long that takes then to throw something together that is a band-aid on a larger problem. I'm a big proponent of the Wizard is OP camp, but even with that...I much prefer new sets and cards come out before a fix is done if it's one or the other. I play tournaments and I both play Wizards and against Wizards...I don't love doing it, but I'd rather deal with it on a smaller scale than have the game's expansion slow down once again. Once PvS comes out, if Wizard is still an issue, I'd still prefer the people at AW work on the next expansions instead of testing Wizard solutions over and over again. If the Wizard is really that big a deal to your games, house rule him or ban him. It's that simple.

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2016, 02:12:55 PM »
While skimming through Wizard spell books posted on the forums that include 2+ Veteran's Belts, I came across this *page* of really good discussion in the (in)famous "Blasting Banker" thread - which has apparently been viewed over 15,000 times! 

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13742.msg31646#msg31646

In summary, top-tier MW players Charmyna and Alexander West discuss how/why the Wizard is the strongest mage (perhaps with the Druid and the Straywood Beastmaster close behind, perhaps followed by the Priestess).  Meanwhile, relatively new players sshroom and Dr.Cornelius basically take it as a fact that Wizard is the most powerful (just by comparing ability cards - it doesn't take a genius to figure it out).  Meanwhile, Laddinfance teases Mr. West and silverclawgrizzly about [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC02]an upcoming creature that will make a better Blood Reaper for the Arraxian Crown Warlock[/mwcard] (because cards from Forged in Fire hadn't been spoiled yet).  Oh, and Laddinfance mentioned that balancing the mages was a priority and that he'd love to hear suggestions from the experts... all this a little over 2 years ago.  An interesting read at the very least.

To be fair this forum thread is before Alexander West won with the Straywood Beastmaster against 2 wizards in the finals round at Gen Con 2014. One of them myself and the other Hanma (Gen Con 2015 Champion) running a Blast Banker book the he learned from Charmanya.

At the time most players had no idea the Beastmaster could pull something like this off. Here is a link to the thread that really shows how many people questioned the Wizard OP line (this appears after the link you posted where Alexander discusses the wizard you posted). I can understand why Arcane Wonders moved on to other matters after this since most players weren't convinced a change was needed. So while i'm not saying whether or not the wizard needs an errata in this post, I hope this can give you an explanation on how it possible Arcane Wonders has been delaying the errata (unlike other erratas that have been made in the past).
 http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14540.msg41098#msg41098
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:14:55 PM by Coshade »
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2016, 04:26:59 PM »
That's meta, though.  Alex West specifically built a Beastmaster to counter Wizards, knowing that (1) the best books were Wizards and (2) the best players would likely be running Wizards (perhaps with a few Druids and Forcemasters and Necromancers sprinkled in the mix).  The only bad thing about his win is it gave ammo to the "Wizard isn't OP" camp.  If a Wizard had won (again), then perhaps we might have seen a fix by now.  But alas, in a meta where nobody expected to face a Beastmaster (and thus, few players brought Suppression Orbs, Mordok's Obelisks, Suppression Cloaks, Chain Lightning, and other area-effect Attack spells), a Beastmaster who planned for Wizards ended up being successful against Wizards (with the help of a clutch Chain Lightning whiff).

This has been rehashed over and over, and around and around the circle we've gone, but:
- YES, it's possible for a Wizard to lose a match, and
- YES, if you build a book specifically to beat a Wizard you might be successful, and
- YES, if the meta brings nothing but hate for Wizards then a (half-decent) Wizard player might even end up with a losing record in a given tournament,
etc, etc, etc...

But that doesn't mean that the Wizard isn't inherently overpowered.  In fact, it suggests there is a problem, since everybody has to ask "how will I beat a Wizard" (or more likely, "how will I win > 50% of my matches given that a disproportionate number of my toughest matches are likely to be against Wizards 'cause all the best players know that Wizards are best and will likely be playing them"). 

All you need to do to prep for Warlocks is bring Dragonscale Hauberks and Dispels.  Fire goes a long way against Druids.  Anti-swarm cards will work wonders against Beastmasters and Necromancers (and conversely, a Beastmaster will do well if nobody brings anti-swarm cards because everybody is convinced that nobody will play a a Beastmaster because anti-swarm cards exist, and besides, "Wizards").  Anti-aggro cards (e.g. walls, Vines/Holds, various Push/Teleport effects, etc) work wonders against Forcemaster (and anyone else going solo/aggro).  But it's tough to plan for a Wizard because he can do just about anything and do it better than just about anybody.  You might face a Blasting Banker or you might face a completely different looking Wizard (curses, tank, mana denial, Jinx-undo).

I'm finding myself traversing the circle again, so I'll take a break.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 04:31:46 PM by iNano78 »
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #113 on: June 17, 2016, 04:39:14 AM »
- give some penalties on spellbook creation
i think that's the center of the question

- Remove ethereal on the zap. (it is thematic, but it just destroys the use of all incorporeal cards)
i think that's secondary

- Seriously nerf the tower
i think that's unnecessary if the spellbook point is solved... but it would be more interesting for the game to make this card more complicate to use!

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #114 on: June 17, 2016, 07:05:42 AM »

But that doesn't mean that the Wizard isn't inherently overpowered.  In fact, it suggests there is a problem, since everybody has to ask "how will I beat a Wizard" (or more likely, "how will I win > 50% of my matches given that a disproportionate number of my toughest matches are likely to be against Wizards 'cause all the best players know that Wizards are best and will likely be playing them"). 

All you need to do to prep for Warlocks is bring Dragonscale Hauberks and Dispels.  Fire goes a long way against Druids.  Anti-swarm cards will work wonders against Beastmasters and Necromancers (and conversely, a Beastmaster will do well if nobody brings anti-swarm cards because everybody is convinced that nobody will play a a Beastmaster because anti-swarm cards exist, and besides, "Wizards").  Anti-aggro cards (e.g. walls, Vines/Holds, various Push/Teleport effects, etc) work wonders against Forcemaster (and anyone else going solo/aggro).  But it's tough to plan for a Wizard because he can do just about anything and do it better than just about anybody.  You might face a Blasting Banker or you might face a completely different looking Wizard (curses, tank, mana denial, Jinx-undo).

I don't see this as a problem. Every good player should be asking this question for each mage. That is the nature of spellbook design. Just because it is a harder to answer for the Wizard doesn't equate to overpowered for me. It may be asymmetrical, which many people don't enjoy in a game design. However, I really like the different challenges this presents.

I like Coshade's point that other strategies are out there to counter Wizard's and other mages. That type of conversation is not circular and leads to improved play across the community.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #115 on: June 17, 2016, 08:49:05 AM »
Question is that in a pursuit of being able to counter wizard, i am not shutting door for an option to be able to counter other mages. Especially as a warlord that is penalized in Arcane :)
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2016, 09:40:51 AM »
I don't see this as a problem. Every good player should be asking this question for each mage. That is the nature of spellbook design. Just because it is a harder to answer for the Wizard doesn't equate to overpowered for me. It may be asymmetrical, which many people don't enjoy in a game design. However, I really like the different challenges this presents.

I like Coshade's point that other strategies are out there to counter Wizard's and other mages. That type of conversation is not circular and leads to improved play across the community.

I'm a playtester for another popular asymmetric game where 2 players square off in a competitive match-up.  In that game, upon an expansion's release in 2014, a particular component was found to be overpowered.  Let's call that component the "TIE Phantom."  It warped the meta in such a way that, in a tournament, you had to build your "squad" to explicitly counter the "TIE Phantom" - and if you didn't, you would pretty much auto-lose if you faced a "TIE Phantom" (unless the dice were particularly biased in a given match - and they'd have to be ridiculously so in order to win).  Basically, the meta became polarized to "TIE Phantom" and its direct counter "Fat Han" (which was excellent against "TIE Phantom" and pretty good against anything else that could realistically counter a "TIE Phantom") until the designers recognized the problem and errata'd the "TIE Phantom" to bring the game back into balance and allow the competitive meta to flourish again.

As I mentioned, I realize that MW is an asymmetric game, and I realize that counters exist to various mages and strategies (e.g. Dragonscale Hauberk vs Warlock).  And I recognize that in a competitive environment, you should either strategically build counters to opposing mages into your spell book and/or have a tactical plan for if you face a given match-up.  And that isn't a problem. That's part of the game.  The problem is, the Wizard is so far superior to other mages that it biases the meta to either "play Wizard because it's best" or "build something specifically to beat the Wizard" - not unlike the "TIE Phantom" menace experienced in this other game (which shall continue to remain nameless...).  It's relatively easy to include a counter or two for each other mage (e.g. Mordok's Obelisk or Suppression Orb to counter swarms, etc), but in preparation for a tournament, the big question every player must truly ask is "How the heck am I going to beat a Wizard?" - not to mention, "Am I going to play a Wizard myself?" All other mage considerations (both in terms of dealing with opponents or choosing for yourself) are trivial by comparison.

Of course, if the Wizard didn't exist, another question might be whether or not we'd be asking the same question with regards to the Druid.  Or perhaps the Beastmaster, or Necromancer, or Forcemaster.  But at least in those cases, there seem to be 4+ mages that are all close in strength that are pretty strong (although this perception might be influenced and/or dwarfed by the strength of the Wizard relative to each of them).  So... "fixing" the Wizard may only reveal other problems beneath the surface.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 10:22:24 AM by iNano78 »
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2016, 08:11:29 PM »
I just had a nice long conversation with sharkbait today in which he explained a very interesting idea about why people haven't been playing the wizard as intended.

1. Wizard pays x1 for most mana and channeling modifiers. Anything that increases his mana or decreases his opponent's mana he is probably able to access more easily.

2. That gives him a built-in mana advantage over other mages. Why does he have this built-in mana advantage? Why would he even need it?

3. Why? To pay for voltaric shield. But usually the Wizard doesn't use the shield at all until very late in the game. Most of the game he never uses it. This allows him to build up an extra mana advantage that would otherwise be used on the shield. And more mana also means he can cast more creatures, spawnpoints and familiars, and that means more actions. So why doesn't he need to use the voltaric shield very much at all?

4. Because he has too much armor. But there are counters to armor! Isn't using acid ball on him, or rust, or piercing damage enough to deal with that?

5. No it's not. Why not? Because of his action and mana advantage. He can just cast more, and he's not worried about the mana and quick action needed to do that. But he wouldn't have that action and mana advantage if he used the shield more, and he would use the shield more if he had less armor, right?

6. Wrong. It's not a matter of how much armor the Wizard has alone. It's a matter of how much more armor he has on than you do. The Wizard can get rid of your armor too, with dispels and dissolves and acid balls, etc. But then what's the difference between wizards and other mages here? Everyone can use acid balls and dissolves and dispels! And acid balls and dispels are not even arcane spells! What gives the wizard his special advantage even when he's not trained in water?

7. There is a limit to the number of copies of a particular spell that you can include in your spellbook. 6 copies max for lv1 spells, 4 copies max for everything else. During a game, this usually means that a Mage can cast at most 6 dispels and 6 dissolves and 6 acid balls. But there are exceptions to this. Four of them, in fact: any spell that's bound to an elemental wand, mage wand, wizard tower or thoughtspore, can be cast more times than the maximum number of copies of that spell which can be included in your spellbook. Out of these four cards, the wizard pays x1 spellbook points for three of them, one of which he has exclusive access to. But then why does thoughtspore not cause the same problems in the forcemaster that the tower and wands cause in the wizard?

8. Probably because the tower and wands are undercosted and the spores are not. Thoughtspore is level 2, costs 8 mana and a full action. The spore is easy to kill and expensive to replace. Protecting the spores costs additional mana and quick actions. Mage Wands and Elemental Wands only cost 5 mana and a quick action each, and can be replaced so easily that you don't need to invest very much if anything in protecting them. With a battle forge they can keep replacing each other for as long as the Forge is in play. In fact, the wands have an ability to switch their bound spell  for a quick action and 3 mana. No one uses this ability because it's so much more efficient to just deploy another wand from the forge.

The Wizard Tower costs 7 mana, has 1 channeling, and can change its bound spell for free. It only costs 2 more mana than a wand. By itself, Wizard Tower isn't very hard to destroy. It only has 3 armor and 7 life, so it has the same armor and less life than an emerald tegu. However, it is so crazy efficient that you generally don't need to protect it at all. If the first one dies you just summon another one, and there's no need to do things like guarding it with a gargoyle sentry or something.
But couldn't you just destroy their wands and tower? Why wouldn't that be enough?

9. There are limited number of crumbles and dissolves in your deck, and if you use them to destroy the opponent's wands and tower, they'll just bring out more wands. If you ignore their wands and just acid ball them, they'll just bring out more armor. Therefore you need to destroy all of their wands and tower, and if you do not or cannot have enough copies of dissolve, crumble or corrodisve orchid in your spellbook to get rid of all their wands, then you will need wands of your own. In other words the only answer to spellbind is spellbind. This doesn't seem to be a problem for the thoughtspore of course, because the thoughtspore costs a full action and therefore isn't so easy to replace.

-Wizard Tower costs 7 mana and a quick action. Maybe it should cost 2 more mana, and be one level higher?

-The wands each cost 5 mana and a quick action. Maybe they should cost 1 more mana and be one level higher?

So ultimately the reason people have been playing the wizard like a brute force Mage rather than a trickster and master manipulator, the reason they've been able to run the brute force wizard at all, is probably because he spams objects with spellbind and pays x1 spellbook points for them.

EDIT: accidentally posted this before I was done.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 09:01:38 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #118 on: June 17, 2016, 09:14:03 PM »
I'm sorry Sailor, but you've missed the point about what I was saying.

Just for clarification, my idea is about what the actual problem is and nothing about playing the wizard "as intended." I think however you want to play the wizard is playing him "as intended". I don't think the wizard is a problem so much as a symptom of the actual problem. That problem being 4 + hr matches that only conclude when one player dies of boredom instead of damage.

That being said, Sailor did vaguely allude to what I think the solution is/where the real issue that encourages the problem lies. That issue is the spellbinding wands, and Mage Wand in particular. I'll go into more detail once I've had time to gather thoughts and data on it, but the short of it is that I think that the 4 hr, drawn out games are strictly dependent upon how many mage wands are brought into a fight. This type of build can be done with multiple mages, not just the wizard, and is TERRIBLY dull to watch, play with, and play against. Ultimately, I propose that the spellbinding wands (Mage Wand for sure, the rest I'm fairly indifferent about) should also have the Epic trait.

Just clarifying my idea and separating it from that listed above.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 09:23:51 PM by SharkBait »
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #119 on: June 17, 2016, 10:01:42 PM »
Of course, if the Wizard didn't exist, another question might be whether or not we'd be asking the same question with regards to the Druid.  Or perhaps the Beastmaster, or Necromancer, or Forcemaster.  But at least in those cases, there seem to be 4+ mages that are all close in strength that are pretty strong (although this perception might be influenced and/or dwarfed by the strength of the Wizard relative to each of them).  So... "fixing" the Wizard may only reveal other problems beneath the surface.

This is an interesting line of inquiry. One aspect to the Wizard decision is not only whether to play one, but which element to specialize in. As expansions continue to add and enhance the pool of spells in each elemental school we could find new specialized mages that counter certain flexibility in the Wizard choice of specialization.  So for example a Siren may have additional counters to a Fire Wizard.
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