Everybody hates on the priest. Why!?

[RomeoXero]

Now I for one think the priest is awesome. Let me just make that perfectly clear. I will almost always bring my priest out before my priestess, and though the priestess is awesome too, she's awesome for different reasons.

My main query to the Forum world (hi forum world!) is this, will anyone please spell out to me why the priest is widely considered the weakest mage?

Sure some of his mage stats aren't the strongest, but they all function very well. I don't know about you but with no other buffs but holy avenger (which should be considered a defensive, longevity enhancer) a Knight of Westlock has 3 armor, 15 life, a pretty decent defence, and if you or a holy thing you control gets hit he can hit back for 7 dice piercing +1. That's not small. Bear strength ( that's only one spell for buffs) and it swings 7 natural and 9 of you get hit. That screams buddy build if I've ever heard it! Yeah HA is a bit expensive but that's the holy schools fault not the mage. It's only got one lvl 1 creature, and one lvl 2.
 Also Malakis fire is crazy useful. Doesn't seem like it would be, but adding an almost guaranteed burn for one mana, if I recall correctly that's the cheapest way to get a burn on. And since it requires very little extra prep as far as SP goes ( he always swings light damage) it can be a major thorn when the other mage isn't expecting it. Plus late game (or early if you rush) he's quite capable of punching stuff and that daze chance is crazy useful! Add the dawnbreaker ring and he hits as hard as any other mage, add the staff and it's even better.

So why is he so detested by the competitive community? He has ready access to repeatable daze and stun, equally easy access to burn tokens almost every turn, in school access to the 2ndbest offence creatures (knights) and by far the best defensive creature (Guardian Angel), and heals just as well as a priestess. Yeah 9 channeling sucks but the warlocks make it work! So does the druid. Hell the beastmaster (straywood) is a 9 channel mage and he's pretty awesome.

Give him a try again, I think you'll find his brand of holy retribution is more fun than you thought it was. And if not, tell me why. Thank you all for listening to me ramble!

[Halewijn]

he is indeed very strong, and I took like him a lot.

But you asked for reasons why some don't like him:

- If you go for the HA, people will need to hit you if you want the ability to work. Personally, I enjoy it if my creatures get hurt instead of me.  You will need equipment which will cost mana and probably a battle forge.

- OR you need more creatures, which is again expensive. Your aggressive mage isn't aggressive anymore and the priestess becomes the better option.

- If they single out the HA, then his abilities don't work. (except the +5 life)

- Agreed, a holy avenger knight of westlock is awesome, but it costs 17 mana for a 9 channeling mage. That's 2 turns. You will lose a huge economy advantage. Meanwhile, some curses/mind spells/ ... could destroy his uses.

- The Burn thing is indeed awesome, but again it's 1 mana. And mana is something he lacks.

- The staff of Asyra feels like a must have weapon for him, but again, it's pretty expensive.

Apart from that, I really enjoy playing him.  (much more than the priestess)  And you def. can do hard damage with him, but he's hard to learn.

It's the only alternate mage were the channeling is different and you really feel it during a game.

[ringkichard]

Yeah, I think his problem is mana starvation. It'd be interesting to see what he could do with 10.

[RomeoXero]

I agree that 10 channel would be better. I don't know what mage wouldn't like 10 though. Lol. I wonder why they made him a 9 channelled, I know there's only 3 alt mages right now but it was a bit of a deviation from the norm. Granted two of them came out in the same expansion. Maybe the joktari BM should have had 10, at least it woulda been the same switch.

 But still, I think Coshade proved that getting hit isn't the end of the world, I know that sounds kind of counter intuitive ( he's kind a counter intuitive mage) but I think there's really something to the play style in Divine Life. Take your hits, hit back more, and harder, set him on fire, add the potential to make the other guy miss with his next attack, when you take damage heal it because you can afford it, then do it all again. Keep dispels for poisoned blood, destroy death lock Asap! Boulders or maybe even a meteorite for those, depending on how froggy you wanna get. It's a tough tempo juggle, but I like the challenge and I've had good success with it. Anyway, sorry, more rambles. Thanks for responding! You guys rock!

[Kaarin]

Keep dispels for poisoned blood,

Keep dispells for other things. You have purify for this (and it can remove multiple things at once).

[Borg]

The one thing that sticks out as a problem is indeed that he's constantly short on mana.
If you plan to use his Malakai's Fire on a regular basis he basically becomes an 8-channeling mage.
So, to be competitive he probably should have had a 10 base channeling.

As it stands, he's an aggressive mage who's forced to play "economy first" to be competitive.
He also needs the Battle Forge imo.
So, my opening with him was usually : Mana Crystal - Battle Forge

The reason he needs the BF is that he's a mage who ideally wants to have lots of armor so he takes only critical damage.
Some damage, like 1 or 2 per hit to trigger the HA ability but not enough to become problematic is ideal.
Therefore he's at his best when he's well armored : Leather Boots, Gloves, Regrowth Belt, more armor ... and when he can reduce the amount of dice rolled against him : Divine Protection.

A defense is less important than armor imo as this can prevent the HA from triggering, unless you're facing multiple opposing creatures and you've already taken some damage.

Besides that I'd plan to use my QC on spells in the 5-mana-or-less range just to keep everything affordable and attack with my main action. Being able to Daze with your basic attack cannot be underestimated as it basically works like a Defense.

[wtcannonjr]

I've settled on using the low cost tools of the Holy school to fit his low channeling. The Temple of Asyra is a low cost Spawnpoint and spamming Clerics provides action advantage, mana generation, and additional healing potential. You have the Holy Avenger available to counter punch if the opponent tries to take down the clerics. I prefer the Gray Angel as HA at the moment.

[iNano78]

Late to the party, but here's my thoughts on why the Priest is tough to play.

- Holy Avenger is hard to actually get to work to its potential.  That is, most of the time, you're paying (level + 1) for +5 life, which is barely worthwhile and not nearly as powerful as most mage abilities.  If you want to get the most out of your Holy Avenger (e.g. get him to actually "avenge"), you need your opponent to cooperate by attacking other holy creatures/conjurations - and as I'll point out below, the Priest isn't very good at pumping out other holy creatures.  Most of the time, the Holy Avenger is worse than the (Straywood Beastmaster's) Pet (e.g. paying level+1 gets life +3, armor +1, melee +1, and an additional conditional melee +1 that is generally easy to pull off).

- Malakai's Fire is OK and fairly easy to use, but it's no (Beastmaster's) Quick-Summon.  And the Beastmaster also gets one of the best spawnpoints in Lair, so... basically the Priest is worse than the Beastmaster in pretty much every way (worse "buddy" buff, worse other ability, worse spawnpoint, etc).  It's also somewhat dependent on either casting the (relatively weak) holy attack spells, or on attacking with Staff of Asyra, both of which are susceptible to Dissolve/Crumble/Explode (since the attack spells only get good via Dawnbreaker Ring), especially since his basic melee attack only rolls 2 dice (e.g. you're paying 1 mana to use Malakai's Fire to bring it up to something with damage potential equivalent to a 3-dice melee attack... so kind of like Arcane Zap but not a quick-spell and not range 0-1).

- Priestess can almost do what Priest can do (since Holy Avenger is usually more-or-less Bull Endurance, and she doesn't have to pay mana to get a basic 3-dice melee attack), and she channels 10 naturally... so... why bother with the Priest?

[jacksmack]

Very well put nano. Those are my thougts on the Male Priest as well.

I too find it extremely hard to get my avenger to actually avenge anything.
Furthermore, opposite of Pet which you want to use on lvl 1 or 2 i find that Avenger must be put on lvl 3+ to get its worth.
I feel that way, because the lvl 1 or 2 dies too easy. And as a mage that must melee every round i dont feel like i can afford to recast in mid game, whereas the beastmaster can very easy recast his pet on another lvl 1.

[RomeoXero]

Thank you everyone so far! Don't take my further coments as angry arguments either, cuz this is great! I'd like to point out though that many mages have to run Forges and mana crystals, so why does it suck so much when the priest does it? The way I see it if you come up with a priest, what will your opponent expect of you? Temples and spawn points? Early rush with a buddy? Solo mage? (unlikely). The way I hear it folks expect priests to lay down and die because the mage card isn't as powerful directly compared to the (arguably OP... Constantly arguably in fact) wizards?
 I've seen folks get thrown off by even seeing a priest as an opponent. One style I used had lots of defences, another style had a forge and a ToA. The one I'm using right now has NO spawn points at all. I look at HA as a huge life buff ( biggest in the game in fact) with some gravy, and even a BM needs to buff his creatures, why doesn't he garner ire from it.
I'm gonna take this to OCTGN and widen my meta! I need to see if it's just my local meta that's not used to it.

[echephron]

Why they hate him:
1) because he has 9 channel with optional -1mana to place a burn rather than 10 channel with optional -2 mana to place a burn. Discussed elsewhere.

2) Holy Avenger. Poor outlook: people think, "I either don't get that +5 life or I don't get that extra damage. Even worse, its the opponent who decides what benefit I get." I wouldn't bulls endurance my knight, so why would I holy Avenger it?" With a more positive outlook it becomes, "I can wreck their stuff unless they deal with the Holy Avenger first. And if they kill it I can just keep making more."

3) Priestess multi-corrode removal can't be replicated with other spells like purify.

Thats about it.

edit: 4) people undervalue daze and priest is the king of daze. The reason is the uncertainty. If daze made people receive half damage rather than having half a chance of zero damage, people would love it.

edit: 5) Adding a mana cost to the summoning of a level 3 creature (no level 1-2 holy creatures were viable at priest release) is prohibitive. Beastmaster pet has always had level1-2 options. Bloodreaper has no mana cost. Academy will help, but the opinion has already been formed.

[RomeoXero]

1) because he has 9 channel with optional -1mana to place a burn rather than 10 channel with optional -2 mana to place a burn. Discussed elsewhere.

I Actually hadn't seen that till now, but you're absolutely right! And if I'm playing economically (think budgeting for something bigger... you know, cuz mana sucks for him) for 2 mana you could play that ignite (not that i would but in a perfect world here, follow me on this one) then cast a Sunfire Burst for 5 and get another potential burn, then pay 1 more mana and get a guaranteed burn, and a probable daze in there somewhere.

The pessimist says: 2 actions, 8 mana, coulda cast a fireball, not enough attack dice (which is truish, but if you arent playing DB ring and Hawkeye you are probably being foolish.) etc.
The optimist says: played a tight round, got 3 possible burns and a daze. part of that is repeatable for cheap and with a little tech (that pretty much everyone else uses anyway, i mean when doesnt a warlock use his fire ring? and everyone uses Hawkeye)those 2 dice attacks are 4 dice attacks, with dazes and stun chances all over.

Major tempo swing stuff frequently and in small, affordable packages. ive seen a single daze roll swing a game in a huge way, and the priest hands them out like Halloween candy! he can slap you one and you are (possibly) dazed by his holy rage, not to mention set on fire.

Holy Avenger. Poor outlook: people think, "I either don't get that +5 life or I don't get that extra damage. Even worse, its the opponent who decides what benefit I get." I wouldn't bulls endurance my knight, so why would I holy Avenger it?" With a more positive outlook it becomes, "I can wreck their stuff unless they deal with the Holy Avenger first. And if they kill it I can just keep making more."

Truth!! But some real success ive had is with Temple of Light and Temple of Dawnbreaker (and Hob when theres time) to make small but incredibly annoying attacks repeatably. There gonna want to hit the ToL eventually because of all the stuns and dazes its capable of. Stay around it with your small 5  mana 4 damage range 2s that daze (and burn) and your HA in zone or near and he can hit back harder. Its a tough nut to crack.

As to the Priestess removing conditions better... well yeah! he is an alternate mage, he doesnt have to have the same abilities. No other mage has a much better way of removing conditions either, but they dont cry about it, they carry a healing wand and work around it. It just seems to bug people that the Priest has to do things, things that everyone has to do, and i never understood why it bothered them so much. Ive got a much better understanding of the General opinion, dont agree with it, but hey thats why this game is awesome! We can all be right!
 
lol, i dont know maybe i like kicking at this horse because thematically i love this mage. he works he really does. Ive seen it! Ive Done it! It takes work, but its freaking awesome when it works out! I mean people figured out bunches of ways to use the Forcemaster and shes hard as hell to use to good affect. I know this one got crazy rambly, sorry bout that, but i guess i feel strongly about this for some reason. lol!

[Coshade]

Hey Romeo!

I'm glad you've been seeing how much fun the Priest can be. Lately I've been loving the Holy school in general. I know you mentioned that you saw my analysis on the Priest, but maybe I can expand a bit on the Holy school in general right now.

My main query to the Forum world (hi forum world!) is this, will anyone please spell out to me why the priest is widely considered the weakest mage?

I think right now a lot of people have posted why the forums consider it the weakest. I think it's important to talk about where Mage Wars is at right now.
Here is a list of cards that involve each of the major schools.
Dark - 79
War - 70
Nature - 69
Arcane - 47
Holy - 39
Mind - 37
There might be a problem with the holy school and the available choices currently. I suspect the hidden problem that is not discussed is that the holy school hasn't had an expansion in a long time to support it! The Priest is a mage that has a really cool ability that affects holy creatures. Out of the 11 holy creatures, 4 of those cannot have the holy avenger token. Out of the remaining creatures, only so many are actually desirable to create the avenger. So the options right now feel a little tough, but I think with PvsS we will most likely see more holy creatures and the Priest may see a huge buff (not that it needs it IMO).

On top of that the Priest is one of the toughest mages to get right. When it comes to utility in the holy school, you pay a premium. Guardian angels are great defenders, but they drain you bank. The [mwcard=MW1Q29]Staff of Asyra[/mwcard] is an amazing weapon, especially against rushers, but costing a round of channel is really intense! In Mage Wars, if you choose to commit you mana to high cost cards, they have to work out for you or you usually lose. Personally that is why I rarely use [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC06]Guardian Angel[/mwcard] even though I run 2 of them and I have taken out the [mwcard=MW1Q29]Staff of Asyra[/mwcard] altogether in my holy book.

Malaki's Fire - I think a major complaint about this is that it doesn't affect conjurations. Right now my biggest problem is destroying things like [mwcard=MW1J19]Deathlock[/mwcard]. I can't afford the [mwcard=FWC02]Earth Elemental[/mwcard] spellbook wise to deal with the wizard's towers (and [mwcard=FWC02]Earth Elemental[/mwcard] destroys them all of them). Other then that I think the burn is worth it everytime on creatures. 1 mana for a burn is insane! and the fact that you can stack them each round gets out of hand quickly. When you play Mage Wars, you want to figure out efficient ways to deal damage, and Malaki's Fire is super efficient!

Holy Avengers - I know you really like the [mwcard=MW1C22]Knight of Westlock[/mwcard] for the holy avenger, but have you looked at the [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC01]Asyran Defender[/mwcard]? They are like mini Knights. If you give him the Holy avenger it costs 3 mana (still cheaper then the knights initial cost) and do 3-5 dice piercing 1, has 1 less armor but more 3 more health then the knight (at inital cost) and still can dodge things! Keep in mind it's cheaper then the initial cost of the westlock but has comparable stats and is less spellbook points! I've had a ton of success with [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC01]Asyran Defender[/mwcard] and people just don't want to go after them after they dodge (or they do and it's crazy value).

Personally I think the Priest destroys rush builds, while the Priestess is better suited for the long game. The ability to daze with a priest punch can get very scary for a rushing opponent very fast. Mage wand with purify is really cheap and effective way to get the priestess to gain lots of life (0 mana to get rid of nothing and it resolves)! But both mages are capable of winning against any other mage. Keep playing and exploring this awesome school and feel free to post your thoughts on how the holy school is doing!

If I think of other things to add to this I'll edit the post otherwise I hope I could contribute to your question!

[Halewijn]

So the options right now feel a little tough, but I think with PvsS we will most likely see more holy creatures and the Priest may see a huge buff (not that it needs it IMO).

I too prefer the defender at the moment. And I completely agree, I'm betting SvsP will give the priest an awesome avenger!    (and maybe some other stuff)

[sIKE]

I have seen the argument on the Priestess many times: Condition Removal. I always felt that yes this is a great power and was very useful. However, it is an quick action, and against a skillful mage (say someone like Schwenkgott, Murphy, Hanma, Mystery, or Charmnya you will quickly find yourself either mana or action starved and not really able to use this ability to support your creatures with it and only use it in case of emergency on your mage. However I have made Schwenkgott "work around/ignore" or "sleep" the HA as it is quite the threat. The goal of the game is to kill your mage. However if the retribution for successfully hit the mage is quite hi then you have to deal with the HA. My favorite combo, though it really needs to be reworked as Schwenkgott has mastered the counter is a Temple High Guard as a Defender using Guard to direct damage to himself and a Unicorn HA, slowly buffed with Lion Savagery and Cheetah Speed, and if I am real lucky Mongoose agility. You are then talking about Holy Hell heading your way.