December 10, 2024, 06:38:33 AM

Author Topic: Alternate Priestess Art?  (Read 15877 times)

Ophidimancer

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Alternate Priestess Art?
« on: October 04, 2015, 02:38:47 AM »
Would it be possible to issue new artwork for the Priestess that isn't as revealing?  There's an issue with the different representations of the women in Mage Wars as opposed to the men, but they can usually be explained as cultural differences, but it's a little harder to explain to my little niece why the vestments of the Priestess are so revealing when the Priest who is wearing very similar vestments is so much more covered up.  As far as I knew Asyra also isn't a god of love or fertility or anything like that?

Schwenkgott

  • Thunderdome
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1430
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 03:40:11 AM »
Another art for the orc Warlord too please: I'm offended by his huge biceps!  ::)

Cmon! It's a fantasy game that tries to open you a door to _escape_ your normal world with all its limitations of cultural thinking. You just have to walk through.
It's not like the priestress is wearing a bikini right?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 03:43:00 AM by Schwenkgott »
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Boocheck

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 03:52:16 AM »
We are still talking about his Niece and cultural norms in ophidimancers country. Some cultures have different approach to nudity and what is acceptable in their society and i fully understand his proposition. I would wait for Academy priestess. She had much more cloths on her.

Bikini mage wars edition would be cool :)
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
I am one with the force, the force is with me! (Warlord is still my fav mage ;) )

Ophidimancer

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 06:06:01 AM »
Another art for the orc Warlord too please: I'm offended by his huge biceps!  ::)

Cmon! It's a fantasy game that tries to open you a door to _escape_ your normal world with all its limitations of cultural thinking. You just have to walk through.
It's not like the priestress is wearing a bikini right?

"I don't have an issue with that, so obviously no one does and it's not actually a problem so I'm going to make light of what you just said in order to belittle your post and get you to stop talking about it."

I brought this up because I sincerely have an issue with this.  I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be so dismissive.  I've been an avid fantasy fan since I was a kid and I want to pass on this love of fantasy to my niece and nephews, but I find it an issue to do so without also passively teaching them that women, as a matter of course, are treated different visually.

Like I said, most of the artwork depicting women in Mage Wars is explainable for culture (Johktari garb is only present in the Beastmaster, so all her people could dress that way, Druid is clothed in leaves, Royal Archer and angels are minor characters) but when it comes to the Priestess we have an example of what their vestments look like on a man and he's completely covered up, so it's really hard to give an explanation that's not, "Well most men like to see women's skin, so that why she looks like that."

That's why I appreciate the new artwork for the Dawnbreaker's Chosen.  Her armor is actually practical looking, and without the stupid breast separation that is usually present in such artwork and is, historically speaking, stupid because it would direct the force of a strike right to her sternum.

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 07:48:48 AM »
Another art for the orc Warlord too please: I'm offended by his huge biceps!  ::)

Cmon! It's a fantasy game that tries to open you a door to _escape_ your normal world with all its limitations of cultural thinking. You just have to walk through.
It's not like the priestress is wearing a bikini right?

"I don't have an issue with that, so obviously no one does and it's not actually a problem so I'm going to make light of what you just said in order to belittle your post and get you to stop talking about it."

I brought this up because I sincerely have an issue with this.  I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be so dismissive.  I've been an avid fantasy fan since I was a kid and I want to pass on this love of fantasy to my niece and nephews, but I find it an issue to do so without also passively teaching them that women, as a matter of course, are treated different visually.

Like I said, most of the artwork depicting women in Mage Wars is explainable for culture (Johktari garb is only present in the Beastmaster, so all her people could dress that way, Druid is clothed in leaves, Royal Archer and angels are minor characters) but when it comes to the Priestess we have an example of what their vestments look like on a man and he's completely covered up, so it's really hard to give an explanation that's not, "Well most men like to see women's skin, so that why she looks like that."

That's why I appreciate the new artwork for the Dawnbreaker's Chosen.  Her armor is actually practical looking, and without the stupid breast separation that is usually present in such artwork and is, historically speaking, stupid because it would direct the force of a strike right to her sternum.

Well, the other priest is of Malakai, not Asyra.

This topic has been discussed at length on countless threads on this forum. While some of the players like the artwork as it is, I think we all agree that it's still sexist. Unfortunately the gaming population is notorious for its sexism, and if Mage Wars and Arcane Wonders is to grow, they probably need to appeal to that.

Keep in mind that the storyline and the gameplay aren't sexist, just the artwork. Therefore, it seems clear that Arcane Wonders themselves are not sexist, and if the market were different so would the artwork.

Furthermore, I suspect the sexist artwork is not likely to change much until Mage Wars is popular enough already that they don't need it. I suspect some of the new not-sexist artwork like the academy priestess and the Dawnbreaker's Chosen is meant to appease people already playing. The sexist artwork has been complained about so much and I'm guessing they'll also want some recurring female characters who aren't visually portrayed in such a sexist manner. That way when the game does become sufficiently popular they won't have to go through the painful process of gradually redesigning ALL the female character art to be less sexist, but will have some ready-made already.

This is mostly speculation though. All I do know is:

1. While the artwork is often sexist, the storyline and gameplay are not.
2. Arcane Wonders is a very fair-minded company and aside from the artwork they have never expressed any sexist attitudes or opinions whatsoever to my knowledge, or at least no sexist attitudes and opinions that aren't already shared by most people.
3. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I might not be remembering right, but I'm fairly sure that the artist is a woman. Not sure if that is relevant to anything or not.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 09:41:00 AM »
That's why I appreciate the new artwork for the Dawnbreaker's Chosen.  Her armor is actually practical looking, and without the stupid breast separation that is usually present in such artwork and is, historically speaking, stupid because it would direct the force of a strike right to her sternum.
The dawnbreaker's chosen is completely epic. That card...  ::)


I think that this happened because the priestess/angels were in the first core set (first expansion for guardian angel) and they wanted to make it more appealing. I agree that a covered priestess would be nice though.




The warlock, Siren, wizard, forcemaster, beastmaster and druid all seem very strong, independent women. I even think the druid or siren could be naked without it being sexist.

I can imagine AW wants to change it but don't want to give it a budget since there are probably a dozen things they have to do.  :P

btw: IMO, just be honest to your niece/nephew. Explain why the art is like that. The world is filled with sexism and internet is not helping this.. Better help them understand the world and make them able to see things in the right perspective. Being prude/protective will not help them.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 09:58:34 AM by Halewijn »
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Ophidimancer

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 11:15:15 AM »
This topic has been discussed at length on countless threads on this forum.
Has it?  Thank goodness, I just did a cursory search and didn't turn anything up.  I'm glad I'm not the only one.

While some of the players like the artwork as it is, I think we all agree that it's still sexist.
Oh good.  Again, I'm glad I'm not the only one.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 11:40:24 AM »
Quote
I think we all agree that it's still sexist.
Not all of us by far.....
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Ophidimancer

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 09:48:31 PM »
Ok so I found an old topic about this and I think most of what I have to say has already been said HERE and brilliantly by RingKichard.

The only thing I may have to add is that I don't want the images my niece, and maybe someday a daughter or son, is growing up surrounded by to reinforce the idea that women are meant to be on display and owe it to the world to conform to someone else's standard of beauty as worth.  As well as images of men who are clothed in a much more utilitarian way and, emphasizing that men's worth is about the actions and choices they make.  That's a toxic dichotomy.

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 11:09:38 PM »
Oh man, I remember that thread. I'm pretty sure I burned a bridge or two in the community that week. That is, if I had any bridges standing from the first, since deleted thread I started on this issue. I regret that it happened that way, but I regret further that it was necessary. I miss Deckbuilder; he was an excellent gamer, who left for many reasons, all his own. And I miss Aylin, who was usually right and never diplomatic. They were both good to have around, and I still think fondly of them. I hope they are well, and have stopped killing each other with their words.

I will say that since I wrote my commentary in that thread, AW has made good progress, both in its sexism and in its marketing strategy. Not everything is well: we're still releasing things too slowly, and the next major expansion features a chesty mage in a swimsuit. But those problems are very much a result of past errors. That mage art was purchased a long time ago, and art assets are very expensive, especially for a character that's going to appear on many cards. And the production delays AW faces are both circumstantial and structural, and the structures are now much improved.

AW is doing better, and I'd point to an unreleased product that I can't talk about yet to prove my point, but well, I've signed an NDA. Please believe I would not be able to continue to work with AW if it continued to violate my inegrity, but also that we are all human and progress takes time and hard work. I think I expressed my recent gratitude, but I'll do it again: thank you for the progress we've made, I can't wait to share it.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Boocheck

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 02:01:30 AM »
Here is a pic of "new" young priestess from academy.

http://magewars.cz/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/3-e1418154890684.png

I think that she is covered pretty well.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
I am one with the force, the force is with me! (Warlord is still my fav mage ;) )

Ophidimancer

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2015, 09:21:40 AM »
That's.... not really that much better. Despite having slightly more of her skin covered up, her body still seems to be on display. I'm not quite sure you understand the nuance, but the issue is more of the discrepancy between how the women are portrayed and how the men are portrayed.

@RingKichard Thanks for the reassuring news! I'm glad there's someone on the team that is cognizant of these issues and willing to speak up about it.

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2015, 09:36:30 AM »
I'm on your side about the original priestess. But how is that not much better? Because she is not wearing pants or the heels?  ???

I really dont see how she is "on display".
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 09:39:18 AM by Halewijn »
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Ophidimancer

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2015, 10:36:09 AM »
It's not just about skin coverage. A woman in a full body catsuit would be fully covered up, but still on display because of how tight the suit is. Same here with that laced corset looking thing.

How much of the men's bodies can you see through their clothing? None really.

And I'm not trying to be sex negative either. I think people can dress as provocatively as they want. The issue here is the stark difference between the portrayal of men and women. The men are shown as combat ready and capable by their dress and equipment. The women are shown off instead. It illustrates that women are expected to display themselves even when they are supposed to be trying to fight.

Who goes into a duel wearing strappy heels? How are you supposed to run and fight while laced into a corset?

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Alternate Priestess Art?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2015, 11:33:25 AM »
I really don't agree on the corset. It doesn't even seem thight. It could be made of leather underneath the fabric for protection. I can see your point on the heels though, but still, it's such a minor thing... The necro's robes are unfit for battling as well. A priestess is not a warrior that wants to be very mobile. She plans to heal her summoned knights.

I also really could be hating on the beastmasters/dwarven/wizard's epic beards. I'm not able to grow an awesome beard like that and it could give me a complex and wrong expectations about that. It's always so easy to find things to hate on...  ::)

Agreed, there are in general problems with fantasy-women and the priestess/angels in mage wars. The new priestess really does not belong in that category.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.