Two Handed Melee Weapons.

[silverclawgrizzly]

I thought I'd give this it's own thread because I'd like to knock around ideas here. What would be some good ideas for a melee weapon that takes both the weapons and shield slot in your equipment?

Obviously a decent dice pool would be nice but here are some other thoughts I had:

Sweeping: Honestly this is a no brainer. I'd be amazed if the Barbarian didn't have a big beat stick of a weapon that attacks more than one opponent. A Barbarian Only weapon could even have it be the quick attack.

Bleed: What about a nasty little Nature weapon that bled opponents? Like a wicked spear?

Rot: For a Necromancer who doesn't use the book obviously. A dark scythe would be awesome.

[bigfatchef]

For the lack of strong light attacks a two handed lightsaber or sword with a heavy 4 or 5 roll attack and possible stun AND push would be awesome. This would help the priest a lot!

[Coshade]

A weapon that can Daze and Stun would also make a lot of sense! The big issue with 2 handed weapons is making them playable but not overpowered. We rarely see [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard] get played because of its expense. Do you think giving melee +1 or armor +1 would help this out?

[Puddnhead]

I like Bleed as an effect as well, but it is too easily healed off of your main target (enemy mage) and is completely useless against non-living and plant objects.

Scythe is a pretty awesome idea.  It would have to do more than just Sweeping and Rot. 

Let me explain:

Unfortunately, there's a precedent that will have to be followed regarding weapons.  None of them roll more than 4 base dice.  Your fundamental (which is not Novice for some reason) weapon is [mwcard=MW1Q18]Mage Staff[/mwcard].  5 mana for a one-handed, 4 dice melee attack with a special feature (Reach).  Contrast that with the ultimate, aggressive, mage-specific one-handed weapon [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard].  Which is 11 mana for 3 modes of attack (all 4-dice) and piercing 2 on the basic attack.  It's power level practically defines the mage to the point that you could say "I'm playing Galvitar" to indicate that you're playing Forcemaster.  The reason it's so powerful is because it only takes up one hand.  Additionally, Galvitar belongs to the mage with the most prevalent access to position control making the full attacks much more frequently applicable.

There is one printed two-handed melee weapon: [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard].  By all accounts I read and hear, it is generally considered to be the worst weapon in the game.  Why is that?  I think it is because you can get a 4-dice attack on a one-handed weapon with a useful affix (such as [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard]) for much cheaper.  The frequency with which you actually use the full attack for sweeping is significantly smaller and not worth the extra hand.

So the real question is...what makes the second hand worth it?  More dice?  More powerful abilities?  Full action Sweeping doesn't cut it, but it might have cut it if you still got your Melee +X with the second attack or got Sweeping as an affix to the quick attack.  I'm not exactly sure what would be more balanced and still worth considering for a two-handed weapon, but I would love to explore ideas with you.

I imagine that the Barbarian would have an ability called "massive strength" allowing him to use melee weapon full attacks as quick attacks or otherwise boost his effectiveness with weapons.

[iNano78]

The problem with two-handed is you have to give up your Wand - whether [mwcard=MW1Q08]Elemental[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MW1Q19]Mage[/mwcard] or [mwcard=DNQ09]Healing[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ05]Dispel[/mwcard].

[mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] is probably the best weapon in the game for raw damage.  Has a 4-dice quick attack with piercing, or can be Sweeping or Doublestrike as a full attack, and it's always Ethereal.  And it's one-handed, so a Forcemaster can still hold a Wand.

[mwcard=MW1Q29]Staff of Asyra[/mwcard] already has Daze and Stun, and is Light-based to enable the Malakai Priest.  I tend to alternate between Mage and Healing Wands with him, and I'd miss them if he were to use a two-handed weapon.

I'd probably have an issue with Armor +1 on a two-handed weapon, because thematically you're usually sacrificing armour/defenses in favour of a bigger weapon.  Of course, right now there are no "shields" for the shield slot, and even Spiked Buckler doesn't provide Armor +X (although it does provide a defense and a counterstrike).

[iNano78]

I imagine that the Barbarian would have an ability called "massive strength" allowing him to use melee weapon full attacks as quick attacks or otherwise boost his effectiveness with weapons.

Or perhaps he could equip a (different) weapon in each hand (e.g. 2 weapon slots instead of a weapon and a shield), and can attack with BOTH as a single attack action.  Consider attacking with both a [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ03]Eisenach's Forge Hammer[/mwcard] with the same attack action, which would be similar to your choice of Sweeping or Doublestrike.

[bigfatchef]

All good points.
To get sweeping or even tripple strike in a quick action would make sense thematically (people can run with a stick and fight. Look at Darth maul. This thing deals melee light damage and could also push the way I think of it) and the weapon more worth.
But still I agree missing a wand is a price. Maybe making it cheaper would be a way to make the twohander more attractive?

[baronzaltor]

Rot: For a Necromancer who doesn't use the book obviously. A dark scythe would be awesome.

Two handed Scythe with Frost damage because:

A) Chill of the Grave theme potential
B) Calling it an "Ice-Sickle" is fun.

[Ganpot]

The only way 2-handed weapons will be viable is if they are slightly more powerful than a 1-handed weapon and an offhand piece of equipment combined.  There are two reasons for this: 1. a 2-handed weapon is more risky to play than 2 separate pieces of equipment, because it is more likely to get targeted for destruction by your opponent.  2. 2-handed weapons lack the potential variety of mixing and matching 2 different pieces of equipment. 

That's more or less the massive issue with War Sledge at the moment: it's takes up 2 equipment slots but is pretty much comparable to most 1-handed weapons. 

At the very least, 2-handed weapons need to roll 1 more die for each attack (possibly 2), and possess some kind of great passive ability which might normally be seen on a wand/shield/etc. 

For Example:
Claymore - 2 handed melee weapon
Cost - 14
Level - 2 War & 2 Holy
Attacks - 1) quick action - 5 dice, piercing +1, counterstrike  2) full action - 6 dice, piercing +1, sweeping
Abilities - any creature under level 4 that is damaged by this weapon's counterstrike becomes dazed. 

That might be a tad too powerful, but you get the gist of it. 

[iNano78]

Counter strike would be a bit too much I think. That's like giving your Mage a 5-dice damage barrier for "free."
(Yes, 14 mana is considerable but... 5 dice at everything that Melee attacks a Mage would nullify entire archetypes; plus it would be enhanced by Bear Strength, etc)

[silverclawgrizzly]

Counter strike I don't know about, it is pretty nasty. Plus it'd be cooler on like some quick weapons like claw gloves or something.

I could see Stagger though.

[Zuberi]

I don't think the question is about what would make a two-handed weapon powerful enough to be worth using, but rather how much mana is it worth to give up both hand slots. You are basically paying a premium cost with equipment slots, and that should be reflected in a discounted mana cost. If the discount is equitable, then it shouldn't matter how powerful the weapon is.

I personally believe the extra slot is worth about 3 mana. That means if [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard] was made two-handed, it would only cost 2 mana to cast. Seems a good trade to me. [mwcard=MW1Q14]Lash of Hellfire[/mwcard] would only cost 5, which again is a trade that I'd make.

If this was the case though, that would mean [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard] and [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] were basically equivalent, and they are not. Galvitar's quick attack is clearly better, and I would argue that it's Full attack is better as well. Although, Daze does tend to be valued higher than Ethereal, the versatility of the choice between Sweeping and Doublestrike makes Galvitar superior to me. Not to mention the Cantrip Trait. I think it should be worth approximately 2 mana more than War Sledge before calculating the discount for the difference in item slots.

So, what if Arcane Wonders values the extra item slot at 2 Mana? It might not seem like much of a difference, but it actually would significantly reduce my enthusiasm to play two-handed weapons when we again look at converting the current weapons into that form. My guess is that the actual value of the item slot is somewhere between 2 and 3 mana.

[ringkichard]

With Wizard's Tower, why even bother with a wand?

[exid]

I don't think the question is about what would make a two-handed weapon powerful enough to be worth using, but rather how much mana is it worth to give up both hand slots. You are basically paying a premium cost with equipment slots, and that should be reflected in a discounted mana cost. If the discount is equitable, then it shouldn't matter how powerful the weapon is.

I personally believe the extra slot is worth about 3 mana. That means if [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard] was made two-handed, it would only cost 2 mana to cast. Seems a good trade to me. [mwcard=MW1Q14]Lash of Hellfire[/mwcard] would only cost 5, which again is a trade that I'd make.

If this was the case though, that would mean [mwcard=FWQ11]War Sledge[/mwcard] and [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] were basically equivalent, and they are not. Galvitar's quick attack is clearly better, and I would argue that it's Full attack is better as well. Although, Daze does tend to be valued higher than Ethereal, the versatility of the choice between Sweeping and Doublestrike makes Galvitar superior to me. Not to mention the Cantrip Trait. I think it should be worth approximately 2 mana more than War Sledge before calculating the discount for the difference in item slots.

So, what if Arcane Wonders values the extra item slot at 2 Mana? It might not seem like much of a difference, but it actually would significantly reduce my enthusiasm to play two-handed weapons when we again look at converting the current weapons into that form. My guess is that the actual value of the item slot is somewhere between 2 and 3 mana.

about the sledge and galvitar, you compare what can't be: one is reserved to the WL, the other to the FM. it can be a designer's choice to give a better weapon to one than the other.
I think your idea is good, to tell the mana-price of a slot, but you should compare un-reserved equipments or equipments reserved to the same mage.

[Zuberi]

about the sledge and galvitar, you compare what can't be: one is reserved to the WL, the other to the FM. it can be a designer's choice to give a better weapon to one than the other.
I think your idea is good, to tell the mana-price of a slot, but you should compare un-reserved equipments or equipments reserved to the same mage.

I admit that my estimate of the extra item slot being worth between 2 to 3 mana is pure speculation and based more on simply thinking about what I would be willing to pay for giving up the slot than any actual comparisons or figures. If we took any of the one-handed weapons currently in the game and reduced their cost by 3 mana, I would absolutely be willing to give up the extra hand. However, if it was only reduced by 2 then I'd have to think about it and not all of them would make the cut. Thus, my gut feeling is that it's probably closer to 2 than 3, but still somewhere in between.

The discussion of War Sledge and Galvitar was kind of a tangent. I really do think that the difference in power is due to however they decided to round off the mana costs, but their comparison did not really have an impact on my hypothesized value of the item slot.