The Non-Random Effects Variant

[Ganpot]

I came up with the idea for this slight rules modification a while ago but haven't had the chance to playtest it yet.  Basically, the idea is to make all effects that would be decided by the d12 controlled directly by the players instead.  The main reason to do this is to allow for more strategy and prevent randomness from having as great of an effect on games. 

Here's how it works: each time a spell would involve an effects roll, that roll is cancelled and the player instead receives 6 Effect Points.  Each player keeps track of their Effect Points (similarly to Health, Mana, etc.).  Whenever a player receives Effect Points, the player may invest them (along with any stored Effect Points) into the effects roll on the spell being played.  After the player has declared how many Effect Points he/she is investing into the spell, the opposing player may also invest their own Effect Points into the spell as a negative value (similar to how the Tough trait works).  The effect listed on the spell corresponding to the total number of Effect Points, if any, is then carried out.  Regardless of outcome, all Effect Points invested into the spell are not returned to players. 

By the end of the damage & effects step, each player may only possess up to 12 Effect Points.  Any points gained beyond that limit are lost.  If there are more than two players in a match, only the player who controls the spell involving an effects roll and the opponent targeted by that spell (if any) are allowed to invest Effect Points into that spell.  The spell [mwcard=MWSTX2FFA01]Devil's Trident[/mwcard] has its Cripple&Burn and Burn effects reversed (it now takes 9+ points to both Cripple and Burn an enemy).  If applicable, damage is always rolled and applied before effects are determined.  If the target of the spell dies due to this damage, the effect step is skipped but the player still gains 6 Effect Points. 

Ex. Player 1 casts [mwcard=FWA01]Arc Lightning[/mwcard] at Player 2.  Player 1 possessed 8 stored Effect Points and immediately gains 6 more for a total of 14 Effect Points.  Player 2 possesses 4 Effect Points, and is wearing [mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ03]Colossus Belt[/mwcard].  Player 1 declares that he is investing 12 Effect Points into the spell.  Player 2 then announces that he is investing 2 Effect Points into the spell, which adds up to a negative score of 4.  12 - 4 = 8  The final score is 8, so Player 2 is Dazed but not Stunned.  Player 1 and 2 now both possess 2 Effect Points each. 

Feedback and thoughts are appreciated. 

[JasonBourneZombie]

This play variant is somewhat dangerous depending on the build. With 6-7 effect die rolls a turn in my zombie build, many players would be hard pressed to come close to matching me in effect points. One could also receive effect points for minor effects, like daze, and save them for burn, rot, and bleed.

I'm also not sure how well this system would work with zone attack spells, since there are at least a couple with effect die rolls.

[Ganpot]

This play variant is somewhat dangerous depending on the build. With 6-7 effect die rolls a turn in my zombie build, many players would be hard pressed to come close to matching me in effect points.  One could also receive effect points for minor effects, like daze, and save them for burn, rot, and bleed.

Yup, that is kind of anticipated.  But if you were rolling that many effect dies anyway, your opponent was going to end up with a lot of conditions regardless.  The only difference is that you have slightly more control over which conditions are given out, when, and to which targets.  But on the whole, this variant should theoretically provide a slight buff to condition-based builds.  That is part of the reason why I instituted a 12 Effect Point limit, so that players couldn't just hoard massive amounts of points for only powerful conditions. 

I'm also not sure how well this system would work with zone attack spells, since there are at least a couple with effect die rolls.

That's actually pretty easy.  Since a zone attack makes a separate attack against each valid target, the player gets 6 Effect Points per target (but can't carry over more than 12 points from any target). 

[JasonBourneZombie]

I figured the zone attack fix would be that. It still leaves the possibility of the controlling player choosing the order of the attacks and handing out effects to the most dangerous creatures in the zone.

As far as the example of the zombie build, under this system one could get 5 out of 6 conditions placed, where in the normal rules it is less than 50%.

This could be fun, but would need tested and tweaked.

[Ganpot]

As far as the example of the zombie build, under this system one could get 5 out of 6 conditions placed, where in the normal rules it is less than 50%.

That's not accounting for the defending player's Effect Points though, and because the defending player goes last, they can really screw with the attacker.  For example, if the attacker only puts in the minimum points necessary to gain the condition, all the defender has to do is sacrifice 1 Effect Point in order to not get that condition.  Or, the defender could save their Effect Points (if they didn't believe the condition was that big of a hindrance) so that the attacker would have to put in more Effect Points of their own to guarantee success next time (since the attacker will never know whether the defender will invest anything). 

You are right though.  I doubt this variant will be perfectly balanced, and it will probably need to be tweaked a bit.   

[jhaelen]

I'd love to see a working variant for this, but I don't think this is the solution. It will result in a race to generate the most Effect Points, and skew the normal probabilities. Basically, you would try to (cheap) play cards with mediocre effects to gain Effect Points to guarantee your powerful effects succeed.

I think it's problematic to treat all effects the same. IIRC, some effects also have better results with low rolls, so they don't translate well with such a model.

IOW: I don't think it's possible to come up with a balanced, non-random method to apply effects without changing all of the cards that require effect rolls.

[Ganpot]

I'd love to see a working variant for this, but I don't think this is the solution. It will result in a race to generate the most Effect Points, and skew the normal probabilities. Basically, you would try to (cheap) play cards with mediocre effects to gain Effect Points to guarantee your powerful effects succeed.

True, but I have no idea of how to stop players from doing so, and that might not be such a bad thing.  It will certainly increase the value of some cards which are currently considered weak.  Besides, players would still be giving up actions, spell book points, and mana to primarily invest in Effect Points, so there would be a trade-off. 

I can think of a couple minor changes that might help somewhat.  Let me know what you think. 
1. the counter-spell step is moved to immediately after the attacker invests Effect Points into the spell (meaning that a [mwcard=MW1E34]Reverse Attack[/mwcard] or similar could potentially cost the attacker a lot of Effect Points)
2. the Effect Points gained from every effect die roll is reduced from 6 to 5 (to reduce the overall amount of Effect Points)

IIRC, some effects also have better results with low rolls, so they don't translate well with such a model.

The only card I'm aware of which does this at the moment is [mwcard=MWSTX2FFA01]Devil's Trident[/mwcard].  If you know of more, please let me know so I can try to work around it. 

[jhaelen]

The only card I'm aware of which does this at the moment is [mwcard=MWSTX2FFA01]Devil's Trident[/mwcard].  If you know of more, please let me know so I can try to work around it.

I was thinking of [mwcard=MW1J24]Temple of Light[/mwcard].

[Ganpot]

The only card I'm aware of which does this at the moment is [mwcard=MWSTX2FFA01]Devil's Trident[/mwcard].  If you know of more, please let me know so I can try to work around it.

I was thinking of [mwcard=MW1J24]Temple of Light[/mwcard].

Even without my variant, the effects on that card are bizarre...  firstly, there's an equal starting chance for stun and daze, when daze is usually much easier to achieve.  Secondly, that card is supposed to scale with the number of temples the player controls, and is also supposed to specialize against undead/non-living creatures.  Yet getting a bigger bonus to the effect die roll actually hurts the card, since it decreases the chance for it to stun something. 

So the easy thing to do would be to reverse the daze and stun effect numbers.  Honestly, that should probably have been changed even in the base game. 

[Borg]

So the easy thing to do would be to reverse the daze and stun effect numbers.  Honestly, that should probably have been changed even in the base game.

Not really.
If you get a +x to your effect die roll, your Daze chance will go up but your Stun chance remains the same.

[sIKE]

So the easy thing to do would be to reverse the daze and stun effect numbers.  Honestly, that should probably have been changed even in the base game.

Not really.
If you get a +x to your effect die roll, your Daze chance will go up but your Stun chance remains the same.

Yes, if you read back somewhere in the forums a year or so ago this particular card influences lots of design decision's because of this quirk. Regardless of buffs you still have a 1 in 6 chance of getting Stun effect, it just changes where it falls on the d12.