May 01, 2024, 06:43:35 PM

Author Topic: Undo the undoing war  (Read 6591 times)

Moloch

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Undo the undoing war
« on: January 05, 2015, 11:14:32 AM »
Some games of Magewars are more exiting than others.

For me games in which creative solutions and uncommon cards are used are better and games with both players just undo each others actions by dissolving, nullyfy, dispelling...are less so.
 
As a smaller alternative play:
- all spells that undo another directly are now epic and can not be bound to a wand.

For a more extreme variant:
-additionaly all incantations are now epic
-all enchantments are epic
-Mage wand is removed from the game

I don't belive Creatures, Attacks and Conjurations need limiting and with less destruction equipment won't need so many copys anymore.

...for what will you save your one dispell, that forcefield, the mind controll or a possible future force crush?

Would magewars still be playable with an all uniques spellbook full of suprises?


sIKE

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2015, 12:01:56 PM »
No Wizard right?
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Moloch

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2015, 11:09:27 AM »
It's not ike I want to replace the game with this idea, just have something for a few epic matches. Let me try another spin and see if that sounds better:

The Headmaster's Duel!

Every spell can only be used once during the match. Only one-offs in a spellbook. If your opponent uses a spell you can not use yours.
(Mirror matches are discouraged so mage specific spells shine).

It is a gentleman's duell of the most versatie teachers of their respective art, elegant and full of suprises. A good lesson for the novices as well.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2015, 01:23:21 PM »

It's not ike I want to replace the game with this idea, just have something for a few epic matches. Let me try another spin and see if that sounds better:

The Headmaster's Duel!

Every spell can only be used once during the match. Only one-offs in a spellbook. If your opponent uses a spell you can not use yours.
(Mirror matches are discouraged so mage specific spells shine).

It is a gentleman's duell of the most versatie teachers of their respective art, elegant and full of suprises. A good lesson for the novices as well.

Sounds kind of like commander format in mtg.
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echephron

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 05:54:15 PM »
Steal Enchantment would become a MUST card. purge/destroy enchantment would see more play too.
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Moloch

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 08:58:13 PM »
Mind Shield would see play ;D
Only one teleport during the game, one acid ball...but will you wait for the perfect moment to use such contested spell and risk the enemy "wasting" it first?
Since the usual buff cards and removal cards are so limited the game will hopefully go towards multiple heavy hitters on both sides or even a very diverse swarm of midrange creatures from many different schools.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2015, 08:25:30 PM »
From what I can tell, it seems like there are only a few spells that are unbalancing the metagame and making  games less exciting and enjoyable on average. Here is the list I've managed to come up with as well as some ideas for fixing them.

Dispel (increase level by 1)
Dissolve (increase level by 1)
Seeking dispel (increase level by 1)
Teleport (make it unable to target enemy mages)
Wall of Thorns (increase its level and mana cost by 2)
*Brace yourself (increase its reveal cost by 1 or remove novice trait)

*brace yourself is only slightly too powerful for its mana and spellpoint costs. it probably won't hurt the game too much if it remains as is

What do you think?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 08:33:39 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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sIKE

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 09:04:54 PM »
From what I can tell, it seems like there are only a few spells that are unbalancing the metagame and making  games less exciting and enjoyable on average. Here is the list I've managed to come up with as well as some ideas for fixing them.

Dispel (increase level by 1)
Dissolve (increase level by 1)
Seeking dispel (increase level by 1)
Teleport (make it unable to target enemy mages)
Wall of Thorns (increase its level and mana cost by 2)
*Brace yourself (increase its reveal cost by 1 or remove novice trait)

*brace yourself is only slightly too powerful for its mana and spellpoint costs. it probably won't hurt the game too much if it remains as is

What do you think?
Most of these would hurt War more than help, the Wizard would still carry 4 of these and 6 Disarms. The way I see it, the only way to make the undoing things cost much more than the casting cost of the item they are removing. This applies more so for the tweaking the Arcane School Spells they would need to be adjusted in such a manner that they cost at 6 mana out of the mages pool after ring discounts. This would prevent the undo and spike damage in the same round.....
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Sailor Vulcan

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Undo the undoing war
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 10:19:33 PM »
From what I can tell, it seems like there are only a few spells that are unbalancing the metagame and making  games less exciting and enjoyable on average. Here is the list I've managed to come up with as well as some ideas for fixing them.

Dispel (increase level by 1)
Dissolve (increase level by 1)
Seeking dispel (increase level by 1)
Teleport (make it unable to target enemy mages)
Wall of Thorns (increase its level and mana cost by 2)
*Brace yourself (increase its reveal cost by 1 or remove novice trait)

*brace yourself is only slightly too powerful for its mana and spellpoint costs. it probably won't hurt the game too much if it remains as is

What do you think?
Most of these would hurt War more than help, the Wizard would still carry 4 of these and 6 Disarms. The way I see it, the only way to make the undoing things cost much more than the casting cost of the item they are removing. This applies more so for the tweaking the Arcane School Spells they would need to be adjusted in such a manner that they cost at 6 mana out of the mages pool after ring discounts. This would prevent the undo and spike damage in the same round.....

How would most of these hurt war mages? Do you mean by making it harder for them to access arcane spells like dispel and teleport? War mages shouldn't have to be dependent on those anyways. And why exactly would a wizard switch to using six disarms on top of the 4 dissolves they already have included? As far as I am aware most non-water wizards don't use more than two or three dissolves anyways. That's 4-6 spell points. If the level were increased then that would be 8-12 spell points.

It seems like the problem that makes dispel and dissolve overpowered is that they're too convenient and efficient, not because of the mana costs, since these spells make you you pay the same amount of mana to destroy an object that your opponent did to put it into play. But rather it is likely because of the spell point costs.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 10:24:38 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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sIKE

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 11:55:11 PM »
The thread is about undoing, which is why he would carry the max amount of undoing spells possible. Spell Levels primarily affect the book building process increasing from level 1 to level 2 means a mage will carry 2 less. This really doesn't hurt the efficiency of the spell itself. Undoing works very well, when given enough time to pump channeling and equipment to reduce casting costs. When they arrive at the proper balance,they can use both QC and Mage Actions to cast highly effective combos (10 -14 mana range) timed with spike damage based off of Initiative.  If you want these staples Dispel/Dissolve/Seeking Dispel to no unbalance the meta, they should be more costly mana wise so they cant pull off a 4 spell cast blitz over two rounds.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2015, 09:08:42 AM »

The thread is about undoing, which is why he would carry the max amount of undoing spells possible. Spell Levels primarily affect the book building process increasing from level 1 to level 2 means a mage will carry 2 less. This really doesn't hurt the efficiency of the spell itself. Undoing works very well, when given enough time to pump channeling and equipment to reduce casting costs. When they arrive at the proper balance,they can use both QC and Mage Actions to cast highly effective combos (10 -14 mana range) timed with spike damage based off of Initiative.  If you want these staples Dispel/Dissolve/Seeking Dispel to no unbalance the meta, they should be more costly mana wise so they cant pull off a 4 spell cast blitz over two rounds.

I suppose you're right. Maybe the level of the enchantment to be destroyed should be added to the mana cost of dispel? And the same sort of thing for dissolve?

Do you think this will make enchanters wardstone and armor ward too powerful? I'm guessing not, since there are plenty of ways to counter an enchantment besides destroying it. Although harshforge plate might become problematic. I don't think it will, since it's effect is kind of like a continuous but otherwise weaker version of nullify, and the warlord pays triple for nullifies. This will probably make warlords less likely to be dependent on arcane spells.

I'm guessing seeking dispel might be better if its mana cost was just increased to 3.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe the designers aren't considering spellbook points enough when costing cards. Seeking dispel is a level 1 spell that costs two mana. I can fairly easily use it to destroy a level six spell like mind control, if they don't reveal it immediately after casting. And if they do, dispel. Most of the time mind control doesn't do anything but stun a creature for a round or two. While that is impressive, it's not enough for the mana and spellbook point cost.
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DaveW

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2015, 11:24:24 PM »
If you hate the Wizard that much, why not just ask that the number of spellbook points be reduced for the Wizard? That way the Wizard essentially spends those points, and other mages still get the spells, if desired, at the same spellbook point costs.

(I disagree that this is needed, but thought I would present this alternative.)
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Moloch

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2015, 04:43:26 PM »
Wizard is my favorite mage but most mages have not so much "fun" playing against Wizards or other mages playing a similar stile.

For me it is a conflict between:

A: What makes great moments in Mage Wars: Countering Tanglevine with Eagle Wings, combating Cheetha Speed with chains of agony, depleting force field with the three headed hydra ...

B: What makes sense mechanicaly: Assuming you have even a little board advantage* Y (e.g. 1 more channeling)
->your opponent spend X mana and 1 action to cast a spell you spend X mana and 1 action to erase the spell. You now have increased your net advantage by another Y.

*Its especially easy for Wizards to gain an advantage with cheap channeling, discounts or action advantage through mage tower etc.*

As Sailor Vulcan pointed out what makes this worse in spellbook points you are also rewarded by dispelling the mind controll of a force master, dissolving the expensive mage wand of a priest etc.
You win through thousand little cuts and without risk or excitement.

When was the last time a Forcefield did NOT get dispelled? Why even think of another answer to it?

sIKE

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Re: Undo the undoing war
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2015, 07:40:43 PM »
When was the last time a Forcefield did NOT get dispelled? Why even think of another answer to it?
When I Force Pushed the FM through a Wall of Thorns... a thousand little cuts >:) ! Cheaper than Dispelling and he has to pay the Upkeep still.
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