* Ninja'd by Borg, who said the same thing in 1/10 the words... *
Sure, but there are both game balance and thematic forces at play here. Currently, Wizards get cheap access to arguably the most important/powerful school (Arcane) PLUS another (Elemental) school - and they don't pay triple for anything. This means they exclusively have cheap access to most of the staple utility spells (Dispel, Seeking Dispel, Teleport, Harmonize, Mana Crystal, Moonglow Amulet, Mage Wand, Enchanter's Ring, Enchantment Transfusion)
Only two of those are staple utility spells, teleport and dispel. Aside from that it's a fair point. Wizards do get training for most of the staple utility spells.
Seeking Dispel isn't a staple utility spell? And Mage Wand? I think the only spell book I've ever used that didn't include Mage Wand was a Warlord (and even then it was a tough decision to cut it). And at least one of Harmonize/Moonglow Amulet (or Meditation Amulet)/Mana Crystal (unless your mage gets a discount for Mana Flower) is pretty standard in all but the most aggressive spell books *edit*
excluding Warlords, of course. Which explains this:
and Wizards are one of the only mages who can generate enough mana to power more than one spawnpoint/familiar at a time.
This is just not true, unless by "one of the only" you mean every mage that has 10 channeling except the forcemaster, since she only has access to one spawnpoint?
Sure, other mages could generate enough mana, but the Wizard already has cheap access to more channeling equipment/conjurations/enchantments so it's relatively easy for a Wizard to keep up with 2 (or more) spawnpoints. I rarely play Wizards, but I've had Huginn, Wizard's Tower and Battle Forge in play simultaneously and been able to deploy/cast from at least 2 of them each round without much difficulty. Most mages would have to dedicate an awful lot of spell book points to channel enough mana and cast from more than one spawn point / familiar (although it can be done). If I didn't explain this thoroughly, it's because I thought that was fairly obvious.
along with the attack spell set of their choice (and Elemental Wand, etc)
how is this an advantage for the fire wizard over the warlock, or the water wizard over the Druid?
It isn't. And you could argue it isn't an advantage over the Warlords (who get a discount on Earth) either, but the Warlords have other spell point cost-related issues. But it's an advantage over the other mages. Also, it's a
choice of elemental school, while lets the Wizard choose whether access to powerful attack spells (generally lightning and flame) are more important to him than utility spells (e.g. Water for Dissolve and Acid Ball) or other tricks (e.g. Iron Golem/Spiked Pit/various Walls), etc.
, plus don't pay a premium for any of the other school's best spells
paying triple for an enemy school isn't the only cost that can be used to balance a mage. For instance, the forcemaster pays triple for all non mind creatures. While it might be the case that mages must pay triple spellbook points for SOMETHING to be properly balanced, that case isn't open and shut.
There are many ways to (re)balance a mage. I'm not the first to suggest that Wizards feel at least a little overpowered compared to other mages for reasons mentioned all over the forums (a few of which I mentioned in the first post). A lot of these ways involve heavy errata to cards or abilities (see below for examples). Adjusting spell point costs is just one way, and I feel it's a relatively minor way that would be relatively easy to implement (e.g. minimal errata, minimal risk to messing up the game balance elsewhere, etc). It's certainly not an open-and-shut case - hence I'm posting it on a public forum and encouraging discussion. Again, I mentioned in the first post that I felt this would be a relatively subtle way to adjust the Wizard's power level compared to other ways, but if you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them (or point me to them if they've been discussed elsewhere).
(all the efficient Nature enchantments, the devastating Dark curses, the board controlling Mind spells, armour/equipment-reducing Water spells, various War equipments and attack-enhancing War spells including the all-important Battle Forge spawn point, any Holy healing spells), and either get discounted or at worst pay regular price for any "silver bullet" spells (e.g. Suppression Orb, Mordok's Obelisk, Earth Wall, Elemental Cloak, Suppression Cloak).
None of these are silver bullets. Your use of powerful adjectives doesn't have anything to do with the accuracy of your arguments.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, but regarding my use of the term "silver bullet," I meant answers to specific threats like swarms of small creatures (e.g. dropping Suppression Orb or Mordok's Obelisk or equipping Suppression Cloak), attack spell oriented mages (e.g. Elemental Cloak), Warlocks in particular (e.g. trapping them behind Earth Wall), etc. I could have listed more, but I thought I got my point across. My apologies for misuse or overuse of adjectives.
And on top of that, they get discounts on all the mana denial tricks (Mana Siphon, Drain Power, Essence Drain, Mana Vampirism, Staff of the Arcanum), at least one trap (and two if fire), powerful creatures with effects or advantages that serve several purposes (Gorgon Archer, Darkfenne Hydra, Gargoyle Sentry, Devouring Jelly, Blue Gremlin), and two of the best spawnpoint/familiars in the game (Wizards Tower and Gate to Voltari; ignoring Huginn for the moment)...
Now you're just listing off all the spells the wizard can cast that you can think of off the top of your head without explaining how they're OP.
I was just trying to list some examples. Pretty much all of the mana denial cards are Arcane (and generally level 2+), making it difficult for any other mage to use this strategy effectively (although a Forcemaster or other mage could certainly drop a Suppression Orb and/or Mordok's Obelisk if they can justify including it). Regarding the creature list, my point was that while, for instance, Nature has access to a wide range of creatures (for thematic reasons if nothing else), Arcane gets a surprising (to me) range of utility out of their relatively few different creatures:
- Gorgon Archer has a ranged attack that can cause Weak;
- Darkfenne Hydra's triple-strike can be devastating to a mage that is pinned down (e.g. walled in or held by Force Hold);
- Blue Gremlin can basically ignore walls (for a cost that is especially cheap to a Wizard);
- Devouring Jelly reduces armor via Corrode; being uncontainable and resilient and having a built-in reconstruct makes it hard to deal with; and the Devour is an added boon against Necromancers, etc; the Jelly is useful enough to show up in some non-Wizard spell books, despite the high spell point cost;
- Gargoyle Sentry is a terrific guard with Intercept; perhaps not as good as Guardian Angel (which the Wizard could otherwise get for 6 spell book points), but it's a pretty good substitute and keeps the spell point cost down so the Wizard can have more answers for other threats.
As for the spawn points/familiars, enough has already been said about how good Wizard's Tower is. Similarly, Gate to Voltari can channel a tremendous amount of mana (it's probably better on average than Lair in terms of mana cost and average channeling, but a little easier to destroy) and can go along way to help a Wizard pay for some of his more expensive creatures - if that's part of his strategy. It's also possible for a Wizard to protect a Gate to Voltari or Battle Forge with a well-placed Wizard's Tower - which could even be in the same zone. While a Warlock could protect a key spawn point or other conjuration with Sersiryx, or a Forcemaster could protect Battle Forge with a Thoughtspore, those familiar
creatures are generally more vulnerable to various spells and effects (e.g. Slam/Stun/Daze/Sleep, Teleport, etc).
All of these in-school advantages (and no "opposite" school disadvantages) means Wizards get a tremendous spell book building / versatility advantage over the other mages.
Versatility isn't everything. It comes at the cost of focus. There's at least several threads on this forum talking about that trade off.
Thank you for pointing this out. To build even mildly competitive spell books for other mages, they generally
must focus on one primary strategy or win condition with a few answers to specific threats (that would otherwise be difficult for that mage/strategy). Having even one back-up plan in case the primary strategy is foiled in a given set of circumstances is very costly to most mages. A Wizard can (and often does) focus on one primary strategy, too, but I find a Wizard can afford to be much more flexible, have more answers to a wider variety of opposing threats and/or pack more threats/back-up strategies himself. For instance, one Wizard spell book might be able to go fast/aggressive with attack spells against slower mages, but also have a back-up plan of a slower mana denial / attrition strategy (with loads of Dispel/Seeking Dispel/Dissolve) against medium-speed mages, while still having specific answers to creature swarms, fast "burn" mages, slow turtle-y mages, etc.
As I mentioned earlier, there are many ways that a mage (and specifically Wizard) might be re-balanced. The whole point of this thread is to suggest a way to slightly re-balance the Wizard so he doesn't have such an easy time building such flexible spell books without fundamentally changing the way he plays, or going so far as to make him uncomepetive - assuming the Wizard is out-of-balance in the first place, of course. If someone disagrees with the premise, then that's another argument altogether.
With rare exception, I think making Wizards pay triple for the elemental schools they aren't specialized in would only make Dissolves and Acid Balls cost a point more each for non-Water Wizards, or Battle Forge cost a little more for non-Fire Wizards. It would have minimal impact in all other cases. I don't think that would be enough to have much impact on Wizard spell book building. Making Nature cost triple, however, might have a significant impact on most Wizards, as Hawkeye, Rhino Hide, Eagle Wings, etc, are all important spells for Wizards - and it might make sense thematically as well since the Wizards of Sortilege corrupted the natural world, resulting in the horrors of the Darkfenne like the Hydra and Gorgon Archers as a result. It might make sense that they aren't trained in the more "natural" Nature spells and/or have to pay a premium to the "gods" of Nature in order to use their spells as a penalty for their corrupt acts against Nature... or however the fluff surrounding spell costs works. Making both War and Nature cost triple might make non-Fire Wizards think twice about Battle Forge. Adding Holy to the list might make Armor Ward a little harder to swallow, too.
As I've said up-thread, I think if Wizards had more pressure to stay in school, I think they'd still be very powerful, but wouldn't be quite so "I have all the threats AND I have an answer for everything" as they are now.
Wizards don't always corrupt nature, in the same way that research and technology don't always corrupt nature. The Darkfenne was an accident caused by reckless experimentation by wizards without proper ethical and safety protocols.
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was trying to come up with a thematic explanation to support the mechanical rule adjustment proposed to re-balance the Wizard through triple-cost Nature spells. I'm not trying to make generalizations regarding the effects of magic or technology on nature, in real life or elsewhere.
I agree that the wizard is OP in the sense that other mages have to go slightly out of their way in spellbook construction to answer him. Specifically, having teleport and dispel be must haves in all non-wizard spellbooks is not good since it constrains options and potentially makes the metagame significantly less diverse. Same goes for dissolve and to a lesser extent acid ball, actually, since those two spells are usually too useful NOT to include. I think the problem that makes the wizard OP is actually that teleport doesn't have any counters (yet), and that the only counters to dispel are either arcane spells or warlord only.
The cost of Teleport (being a level 2 Arcane spell) certainly makes it difficult for other mages to compete in the board control game in the absence of a direct counter to teleportation (aside from manipulating LoS through Walls or Cloak of Shadows, etc). While Arcane Wonders could errata Teleport to make it level 1 in an attempt to re-balance the Wizard by increasing the power level of all other mages, I think they prefer to avoid card errata. The spoiled anti-Teleport zone enchantment is one possible answer, but it's still possible to push a creature out of that zone and then teleport it (assuming it doesn't have something equipped/attached preventing push as well). Similarly, errata to Wizard's Tower (e.g. making it Zone Exclusive or adding a mana cost for swapping the bound spell), or other possible Wizard power adjustments, might work to re-balance the Wizard. But I think making some schools cost triple (e.g. the elemental schools not chosen, and/or Nature, and/or War) would be easier to implement and might be more acceptable to the community - especially after witnessing the effect card errata to Hand of Bim-Shallah and Temple of Light had on the community.
