Armor Ward and the Corrosive Orchid

[K1ckEM]

Hi!

I have a question about the corrosive orchid. At the the end of the "damage and effects" step of the attack, the attacker can choose if he wishes to use the mist token and destroy an equipment card.

If the enemy mage has an armor ward enchantment on him, is he allowed to reveal it AFTER the attacker chooses to use the mist token? Both the revealing of an enchantment and the use of the mist token should be at the end of the "damage & effects" step. But wich comes first? And what if the attacker can't pay the extra mana, is the mist token removed (and the mana lost?)

[kailas]

You can reveal enchanment, from rulebook : At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell.

Yes you are correct. Basicly, after oppent chooses to use his mist token, you can react to it and reveal your enchanment.
If he has no mana, token is removed and mana lost.

[Zuberi]

You may reveal the enchantment in between any of the steps of an attack or casting a spell. This means that it occurs after a step rather than at the end of it, at least how I interpret it, which means you would not be able to reveal after the mist token was used. The latest you could reveal it would be after dice were rolled.

However, for arguments sake, if "at the end" was interpreted to mean after, then both effects would be attempting to occur simultaneously and whomever has initiative would decide what order they occur in. I do not believe this to be the correct interpretation though.

[kailas]

If i reveal healing charm and opponent reveals poisoned blood, i dont get to heal. Because the second effect comes first. It's not simultaneous situation, so it could not be decided by initiative.
There is an effect and a counter and a counter to a counter and so on. The last affect comes first.

Both effects would happen at the same time if the ward would be revealed, but revealing it creates a new time window.

Does the FAQ say between? Rulebook says at the end.

[Zuberi]

There is no stack in mage wars nor any going back in time. An effect that comes second happens second. If you both want to reveal at same time, then initiative decides order. If healing charm is revealed first, then poisoned blood can not stop it.

[Zuberi]

I double checked the rules though now that I have a chance and it does look like at the end and after are kind of synonymous. Thus the two would be at same time and so initiative gets to decide the order.

[Kharhaz]

Both effects would happen at the same time if the ward would be revealed, but revealing it creates a new time window.

Negative. Revealing enchantments opportunity resolve in the order of initiative;

As per the rules:
"If both players want to reveal an enchantment at the same
time, the player with the initiative goes first. He may reveal
as many enchantments as he wants, one at a time, resolving
each one before revealing the next. When he is finished, then
the other player may reveal any enchantments, revealing
and resolving them one at a time. Then the first player can
reveal again, and so on. Each enchantment is resolved as soon
as it is revealed."

So you would not be able to reveal / resolve your poisoned blood until my healing charm had already completed.

[DaveW]

Is the use of the mist token considered to be the same as an enchantment being revealed then?

Even if the opponent with the Armor Ward has initiative, he can't decide to reveal the Armor Ward after the player declares the desire to use the mist token (presuming the same mechanic with enchantments applies here), since that would be in reaction to the use of the mist token. What should happen is that the player with the mist token should pause to allow the opponent with initiative the chance to reveal enchantments, and then declare the use of the mist token (or not).

Therefore, either the enchantment is revealed and the mist token is not used, or the enchantment is not revealed and the mist token is able to remove the equipment item without danger of the enchantment being revealed, depending on whether the Armor Ward is used. There is no way to lose the mist token without effect.

[Zuberi]

indeed. Although if they didn't pause to ask, I would interject my reveal. But if the enchantment is revealed, there is nothing forcing you to use the mist token so it would be silly to knowing you can't afford the cost for the effect.

[Kharhaz]

Is the use of the mist token considered to be the same as an enchantment being revealed then?

Even if the opponent with the Armor Ward has initiative, he can't decide to reveal the Armor Ward after the player declares the desire to use the mist token (presuming the same mechanic with enchantments applies here), since that would be in reaction to the use of the mist token. What should happen is that the player with the mist token should pause to allow the opponent with initiative the chance to reveal enchantments, and then declare the use of the mist token (or not).

Therefore, either the enchantment is revealed and the mist token is not used, or the enchantment is not revealed and the mist token is able to remove the equipment item without danger of the enchantment being revealed, depending on whether the Armor Ward is used. There is no way to lose the mist token without effect.

No. It is part of step 4

[mwcard=DNJ02]Corrosive Orchid[/mwcard]

The orchids ability happens at the end of step 4 (not in between steps like enchantment reveals), and as such the reveal of ward must happen before step 4. However, you never have to declare you are using the mist token until you get to step 4 and if you are in step 4 there is no chance to reveal until after step 4 (which is after the ability has already resolved.)

[Zuberi]

Is the use of the mist token considered to be the same as an enchantment being revealed then?

Even if the opponent with the Armor Ward has initiative, he can't decide to reveal the Armor Ward after the player declares the desire to use the mist token (presuming the same mechanic with enchantments applies here), since that would be in reaction to the use of the mist token. What should happen is that the player with the mist token should pause to allow the opponent with initiative the chance to reveal enchantments, and then declare the use of the mist token (or not).

Therefore, either the enchantment is revealed and the mist token is not used, or the enchantment is not revealed and the mist token is able to remove the equipment item without danger of the enchantment being revealed, depending on whether the Armor Ward is used. There is no way to lose the mist token without effect.

No. It is part of step 4

[mwcard=DNJ02]Corrosive Orchid[/mwcard]

The orchids ability happens at the end of step 4 (not in between steps like enchantment reveals), and as such the reveal of ward must happen before step 4. However, you never have to declare you are using the mist token until you get to step 4 and if you are in step 4 there is no chance to reveal until after step 4 (which is after the ability has already resolved.)

I was thinking the same thing at first, but spurred by kalias I took another look in the rulebook and on page 19 it says "You can reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event in the game:" followed by the specific example of "At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell."

This tells me that "at the end" and "after" are actually synonymous, in which case the removal of the mist token to destroy equipment actually does occur after step 4 when enchantments can be revealed.

[Kharhaz]

Is the use of the mist token considered to be the same as an enchantment being revealed then?

Even if the opponent with the Armor Ward has initiative, he can't decide to reveal the Armor Ward after the player declares the desire to use the mist token (presuming the same mechanic with enchantments applies here), since that would be in reaction to the use of the mist token. What should happen is that the player with the mist token should pause to allow the opponent with initiative the chance to reveal enchantments, and then declare the use of the mist token (or not).

Therefore, either the enchantment is revealed and the mist token is not used, or the enchantment is not revealed and the mist token is able to remove the equipment item without danger of the enchantment being revealed, depending on whether the Armor Ward is used. There is no way to lose the mist token without effect.

No. It is part of step 4

[mwcard=DNJ02]Corrosive Orchid[/mwcard]

The orchids ability happens at the end of step 4 (not in between steps like enchantment reveals), and as such the reveal of ward must happen before step 4. However, you never have to declare you are using the mist token until you get to step 4 and if you are in step 4 there is no chance to reveal until after step 4 (which is after the ability has already resolved.)

I was thinking the same thing at first, but spurred by kalias I took another look in the rulebook and on page 19 it says "You can reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event in the game:" followed by the specific example of "At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell."

This tells me that "at the end" and "after" are actually synonymous, in which case the removal of the mist token to destroy equipment actually does occur after step 4 when enchantments can be revealed.

I know better than to argue rules with you Zuberi....


I still don't know why it is not put into the additional effects section of step 4 which would have clarified all interactions......

[kailas]

I hope i was half right. And my answer was corrrect.
I learned something new ^^ Mixed that thing Flying non flying enchantments.

[K1ckEM]

Thanks a lot for all your answers. Happy to read that you having the same problems deciding this specific situation as we had. So it IS possible to reveal Armor Ward and raise the cost of the disolve effect. One question remains: Is the mist token lost, if the attacker can't or won't pay the higher cost?

[Kharhaz]

Thanks a lot for all your answers. Happy to read that you having the same problems deciding this specific situation as we had. So it IS possible to reveal Armor Ward and raise the cost of the disolve effect. One question remains: Is the mist token lost, if the attacker can't or won't pay the higher cost?

Depends on initiative. If the controller of orchid has initiative the most token will resolve first. If armor ward is first then armor ward is revealed and the controller of orchid has the option to use the token or save it at this point. When he uses the token he removes most token > chooses equipment > pays casting cost of the equipment. (At this point the most token is gone). Now armor ward triggers and they must at 4 or you prevent that destruction.

It's alittle grey because it is not a spell like dissolve so the interaction is as clearly defined.