Codex Update: Sweeping

[Moonglow]

Would it work to make Reach the equivalent traits of a 0-0 Ranged attack?

Although that might create lots of weird interactions between intercepts and blocks etc.

[Zuberi]

The must is emphasized to mean that it can not attack a non-flyer unless it loses the flying trait. If it is unable to do so, then it is unable to attack. Otherwise, the must could have been left out and they could have simply said that they do lose flying when attacking a non-flyer.

It would certainly be possible for them to change the Reach rule to allow the interaction you stated. That is partly the impetus for my question, to see if they had done so. Such a change would have several consequences on the game though, and so I doubt such a change is intended. I believe it was simply an oversight and that the previous rulings are still correct. Meaning that a flyer is not allowed to make an air + ground melee attack, regardless of reach.

[Zuberi]

I do not really feel like debating this issue further though. You can feel free to read the thread I linked to, which I think you've already done. I believe that presents a pretty thorough argument for the issues involved and it eventually received an official ruling on the matter. The only question is whether or not that ruling has changed.

[Moonglow]

But could make a ground to air sweep....? (as reach allows non flying creatures (lost flying trait when attacked ground creature) to attack air....

I guess I can visualise the swoop and attack with the stab/thrust upwards... but it seems a little arbitrary to rule out the converse.

It might make reach much more useful, as essentially if your opponents flying creatures have sweeping and reach, you'd need reach to counterstrike them.... but then again, it only applies if you've got flying creatures in the same zone that they can sweep attack first... so a fairly easy situation to avoid/respond to.

The must is emphasized to mean that it can not attack a non-flyer unless it loses the flying trait. If it is unable to do so, then it is unable to attack. Otherwise, the must could have been left out and they could have simply said that they do lose flying when attacking a non-flyer.

It would certainly be possible for them to change the Reach rule to allow the interaction you stated. That is partly the impetus for my question, to see if they had done so. Such a change would have several consequences on the game though, and so I doubt such a change is intended. I believe it was simply an oversight and that the previous rulings are still correct. Meaning that a flyer is not allowed to make an air + ground melee attack, regardless of reach.

[Moonglow]

Fair enough, I enjoyed the chat though and alleviated some boredom   and yeah, I did read the thread; although not sure I found all the answers to counterstrike and damage barrier.  I can see why you ask the question, and have learned about some rule clarifications/improvements along the way, so thanks

I do not really feel like debating this issue further though. You can feel free to read the thread I linked to, which I think you've already done. I believe that presents a pretty thorough argument for the issues involved and it eventually received an official ruling on the matter. The only question is whether or not that ruling has changed.

[Kharhaz]

In my head the sweeping ranged clarificaiton in the codex means that the flying creature has lost the flying trait, but because it can't loose the trait mid attack action, is still flying.

my mind read that as it could not attack the legal target because it cannot lose the flying trait in order to do so.

And there lies the confusion. I am not arguing your logic, or really anything come to think of it, I can see it going either way and that is where we need a rules clarification on intent vs wording vs Zuberi

[Moonglow]

Guess I'm leaning more to Zuberi's argument/line of thought now though as it doesn't make sense to be flying when you've lost flying.  Where as not flying when you've gained flying is more a timing thing.

The flying without having the flying trait seems more broken then requiring a certain order for sweet/reach air to ground attacks.

I think Zuberi also nailed it a little with the call that 'must' lose flying is a necessary condition/requirement for the action.  Else as he notes, it could just read 'lose flying'.  So it is essentially saying, Creatures with flying trait cannot target non flying creatures with melee attacks. (since you lose the flying trait when you declare attack presumably, making the grounded creature a legal target).

In my head the sweeping ranged clarificaiton in the codex means that the flying creature has lost the flying trait, but because it can't loose the trait mid attack action, is still flying.

my mind read that as it could not attack the legal target because it cannot lose the flying trait in order to do so.

And there lies the confusion. I am not arguing your logic, or really anything come to think of it, I can see it going either way and that is where we need a rules clarification on intent vs wording vs Zuberi

[Laddinfance]

The change to Sweeping was to make it optional. That was the purposeful change. Obviously I'm going to be double checking the rulings, but this was not meant to contradict previous rulings, simply to change the text to allow Sweeping to be optional.

[jacksmack]

What If you had updated reach so flying units could 'reach' non-flying units then what you are seeking would be done.

(it would require that the old entry for sweeping was removed.)

[sIKE]

What If you had updated reach so flying units could 'reach' non-flying units then what you are seeking would be done.

(it would require that the old entry for sweeping was removed.)

I was thinking that this was sort of spinning wheels till I looked up and saw that there are currently two creatures with Reach. [mwcard=DNC06]Kralathor, The Devourer[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNC18]Togorah, Forest Sentinel[/mwcard], you could put [mwcard=MW1E13]Eagle Wings[/mwcard] on either of them and the question now becomes relevant. I can see it going either way, but the ruling for Reach and/or Sweeping should be updated to answer this interesting corner case.

[Akul]

As i remember Togorah has a Rooted trait, so how could he benefit from Eagle Wings?

[Kharhaz]

As i remember Togorah has a Rooted trait, so how could he benefit from Eagle Wings?

When you pay the uproot cost Togorah loses the rooted trait until the end of the round and, if it has eagle wings, would then be flying until the rooted trait comes back at the end of the round

[sIKE]

As i remember Togorah has a Rooted trait, so how could he benefit from Eagle Wings?

I didn't say it was logical or worth it, just that these were the two creatures that currently have the Reach trait.

[Sailor Vulcan]

What If you had updated reach so flying units could 'reach' non-flying units then what you are seeking would be done.

(it would require that the old entry for sweeping was removed.)

I was thinking that this was sort of spinning wheels till I looked up and saw that there are currently two creatures with Reach. [mwcard=DNC06]Kralathor, The Devourer[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNC18]Togorah, Forest Sentinel[/mwcard], you could put [mwcard=MW1E13]Eagle Wings[/mwcard] on either of them and the question now becomes relevant. I can see it going either way, but the ruling for Reach and/or Sweeping should be updated to answer this interesting corner case.

If reach ends up working like that, I don't think it will make Kralathor OP. Specifically, if a ruling ends up allowing flying creatures with the reach trait to melee attack non-flying creatures, and you give kralathor flying, the only difference from how it would have worked before is that the creatures he melee attacks won't be able to counterstrike. Since he's usually attacking smaller creatures from swarms in order to get growth markers, and those creatures often die before they can counterstrike, and when they do manage to get a counterstrike in, the regen and armor usually make them mostly ineffective, I would say this probably isn't that much of a powerup for kralathor, even if you're out of dispels for their eagle wings.

Then again, armory- and standard bearer-boosted soldiers and fire imps might wish they could counterstrike. The question is how much do they wish they could counterstrike? How much of a difference would that make?

[DaveW]

If reach ends up working like that, I don't think it will make Kralathor OP. Specifically, if a ruling ends up allowing flying creatures with the reach trait to melee attack non-flying creatures, and you give kralathor flying, the only difference from how it would have worked before is that the creatures he melee attacks won't be able to counterstrike....

If a Mage with a Mage Staff melee attacks a flying creature, doesn't the flying creature get to use any hypothetical Counterstrike trait or Damage Barrier that it happens to have? It is a melee attack, after all.

If this attacked creature does get to Counterstrike or use a Damage Barrier's attack against such a Mage, why wouldn't a non-flier target creature not get these against an attacking flyer with a Reach attack?

Maybe I misunderstand reach?