Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone

[Super Sorcerer]

ב"ה
Well, I understand the rules a little different about initiative.

I totally agree about-
 

1. Timing Issues only occur when multiple effects, controlled by multiple players, happen simultaneously.

But I think you are wrong about -

2. These issues are resolved by active decision making on the part of the Player with Initiative.

Specifically in the initiative phase the rules indeed say-

In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order.

But that rule applies only in the initiative phase.
In the action stage the rule is different and the rules say -

The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage, and goes first whenever you must determine the order of events

So when you need to decide the order of anything in the action stage, the one with the initiative must go first (and not decide who is going first).

[Zuberi]

I went over all of that. The most general rules can be found in the Codex section which says Initiative "resolves any timing issues." That admittedly doesn't tell us one way or another how they resolve though.

If you want to try and resolve simultaneous events by taking turns with Initiative going first, then how exactly would that work? The rules do not make any accommodations for such. The closest thing is voluntarily revealing enchantments, which doesn't work for mandatory triggers. If Initiative "must go first" then how does that work? How does that resolve the issues? What does that mean exactly? And where is your support for these answers in the rules?

The only thing that makes sense is for the player with initiative to get to decide when comparing things. Which fits with the fact that players normally get to make an active decision when comparing things if those things all fall under their control, and also fits with how the Upkeep Phase is handled and any other example you can find regarding resolving simultaneous effects. You'll not find one single example where you're forced to resolve effects in a specific order due to Initiative.

Initiative going first is a separate rule governing taking turns.

[exid]

... I was out 3 days and there's so much to read here...
bu it seems the "controler" entry in the codex is the clue here!

[exid]

Would it be correct to sumeriseit like that?

"The player with initiative goes first if both players want to act simultaneously.
The order of resolution of simultaneous effects is choosed by the controler of the effects. Exception: during the upkeep it's the controler of the objects affected by the effects who chooses the order.
And if the two rules don't solve the timing issue, the player with initiative chooses the order."

[Super Sorcerer]

ב"ה

If you want to try and resolve simultaneous events by taking turns with Initiative going first, then how exactly would that work? The rules do not make any accommodations for such. The closest thing is voluntarily revealing enchantments, which doesn't work for mandatory triggers. If Initiative "must go first" then how does that work? How does that resolve the issues? What does that mean exactly?

Very simple. First the player with the initiative resolve all of the mandatory effects that he control, then the other player resolve all mandatory effects that he control.
Enchantment revealing Timing issues stay the same whether they are mandatory or not. First the one with the initiative must resolve his, and then the other player resolve his.
With many players it goes by the initiative order.

And where is your support for these answers in the rules?

Page 6 in the codex say-

The player with the initiative acts first during the Action
Stage,  and  goes  first  whenever  you  must  determine  the
order of events.

While there is an explicit exception in the upkeep phase, outside the upkeep phase the one with the initiative always go first.
Just because some events are mandatory, it doesn't make them any exempt them from this rule. 

[Zuberi]

@Super Sorcerer
"goes first whenever you must determine the order of events" is not the same thing as "must resolve all effects before any other player." Where are you getting this interpretation from? Goes first merely means they go first. They take the first turn. You need to find support in the rules for whether they must resolve all of their effects on their turn or whether they take turns resolving one effect at a time. You also need to find rules saying whether or not you're allowed to pass on your turn and delay till after your opponent takes their turn. In short, how are such turns supposed to be handled, and where in the rules does it explain this? Unfortunately, you won't find any answers to any of these questions.

In point of fact, all examples in the rules are contrary to your interpretation. Every example of the players taking turns is either done resolving one thing at a time (creature actions) or allows the players to choose how much they do at a time, with passing being a valid option (voluntary enchantment reveals). All examples of simultaneous events have the players deciding the order they get resolved in (Traps / Upkeep Phase). Show me one single example where the player with Initiative is forced to resolve all of their effects before the next player is forced to do the same. I can't find it.

[Sailor Vulcan]

@Super Sorcerer
"goes first whenever you must determine the order of events" is not the same thing as "must resolve all effects before any other player." Where are you getting this interpretation from? Goes first merely means they go first. They take the first turn. You need to find support in the rules for whether they must resolve all of their effects on their turn or whether they take turns resolving one effect at a time. You also need to find rules saying whether or not you're allowed to pass on your turn and delay till after your opponent takes their turn. In short, how are such turns supposed to be handled, and where in the rules does it explain this? Unfortunately, you won't find any answers to any of these questions.

In point of fact, all examples in the rules are contrary to your interpretation. Every example of the players taking turns is either done resolving one thing at a time (creature actions) or allows the players to choose how much they do at a time, with passing being a valid option (voluntary enchantment reveals). All examples of simultaneous events have the players deciding the order they get resolved in (Traps / Upkeep Phase). Show me one single example where the player with Initiative is forced to resolve all of their effects before the next player is forced to do the same. I can't find it.

Doesn't the deployment phase work like that? Either you have to deploy everything before opponent deploys anything, or pass on the deployment phase? That's the way I was taught to do it. However, The vast majority of spellbooks use no more than one spawnpoint, and most of the time people don't decide to pass on their deploy after seeing what the opponent has deployed. Maybe I was wrong and it was just never pointed out to me because it never became relevant.

So then if I'm facing a Druid who is deploying  multiple times in a round, and I have a spawnpoint of my own, and I have initiative, could I pass until the Druid has only one deployable planned spell left, and then deploy from my own spawnpoint?

[jacksmack]

Druid would have to deploy everything first if he/she has initiative.

[Zuberi]

The rules on the deployment phase are not currently very clear and there's another old thread somewhere where they were debated. Laddinfance is still working on an answer on that very topic, and basically right now we don't know exactly how deployment works with multiple spawnpoints. It definitely doesn't force you to deploy though.

It's most similar to revealing voluntary enchantments, where again you can choose how much to do and passing is a legitimate option. The main question is whether or not it would come back around to you after you've had your turn, or if you only get one turn, and thus one chance, to deploy. So, it doesn't work any better as a guide than revealing enchantments does. We're still left with an example where Initiative can choose to resolve as many triggered effects as they wish, or none at all, before giving their opponent the chance to resolve triggers. And if both players continuously delay? Well, I guess that's just not covered.

Or we could use the Action Phases as an example and say you HAVE to resolve a trigger unless your opponent has more triggers than you, and you go back and forth resolving one at a time. That doesn't really sound right either though, honestly.

And of course, if you use any of these as an example, you run into the same argument that is being used against me with the Upkeep phase. It's not an example of the general rule, but rather something specific to that situation.

In short, we have no rules spelled out anywhere telling us how to resolve simultaneous effects in a turn order kind of fashion. All we have is the instructions in the back of the codex that the person with Initiative resolves the issue. Which is fine if we let him decide how to resolve it. But people saying that he needs to resolve it according to a prescribed method that isn't detailed anywhere in the rules need to justify where their prescribed method comes from.

[exid]

for the deployment the rules are clear:
"starting with the player who has the initiative, you can cast the spellS you assigned to your spawnpointS"

[Kelanen]

for the deployment the rules are clear:
"starting with the player who has the initiative, you can cast the spellS you assigned to your spawnpointS"

That's not clear -

• Do you start with that player and alternate?
• Do you start with that player, do all his Deployments, then all the other players?

FWIW I'd say we multiple spawnpoints in probably two thirds of our mages.

[exid]

for the deployment the rules are clear:
"starting with the player who has the initiative, you can cast the spellS you assigned to your spawnpointS"

That's not clear -

• Do you start with that player and alternate?
• Do you start with that player, do all his Deployments, then all the other players?

FWIW I'd say we multiple spawnpoints in probably two thirds of our mages.

the "S" make it clear for me (the spellS of the first player and then the spellS of the second player)... but I see how you read it... well, an official rulling would be cool!

[Kelanen]

the "S" make it clear for me (the spellS of the first player and then the spellS of the second player)... but I see how you read it... well, an official rulling would be cool!

The plural could refer to the spells of the first player, or the players in general. It doesn't say what you have written (in bold) - that would be clear.

That sentence doesn't parse in English to definitively mean one or other.

[ringkichard]

So, to recap again:

1. During the upkeep phase, you decide the order of events that affect objects that you control.

For example, If your opponent's Ghoul Rot is damaging your creature, you decide, not your opponent.

2. During the upkeep phase, if an event should occur, but it would affect objects controlled by multiple players, the player with Initiative decides when it happens.

For example, if Death Link will heal you and damage your opponent's enchanted creature, the player with Initiative decides when to do that.

3. The exact wording of an ability matters. Highland Unicorn gives all creatures the Regenerate 1 trait, so each healing is a separate event, and will happen sequentially. But the 8th skull on Altar of Skulls gives all creatures the Finite Life trait, so it only happens once, not to each creature individually.

4. For a single event in the upkeep that affects multiple objects with seperate controllers, the player with Initiative derermines when the event happens, as if they controlled each affected object.

5. During the upkeep phase, the player with the initiative also determines which player to ask "what happens next?" The chosen player can only answer with events that affect an object they control, as usual.

6. The player with the Initiative may of course choose themselves to pick the next event. And they also are the player that choses the time of occurence for events that affect multiple players's objects. The combined effect of these rules is that for these sorts of events, the player with Initiative choses exactly when the event happens.

---

Outside the upkeep phase, RAW is that the player with Initiative resolves any timing isues by going first. I concur in part and dissent in part with Zuberi on this one.

I disagree that this isn't a playable RAW. If I have the Initiative and three events that could happen, and my opponent has four, what happens first? The rules say that I "go first," since I have the Initiative. There's no way to reason that away, without declaring a rules error, which I don't see enough evidence for, yet.

Ok, so if I'm not ready to declare a clear rules error it's incumbent on me to explain how exactly we can play the rules as written. Do we take turns or something? Nope.

After having my go, now I have two events and my opponent has four. As happened before, I go first, because I have the Initiative. Then, yet again, there is a timing issue, and I go first. Finally, there is no more timing issue, and the other player acts.

This is exactly what happens in the Upkeep phase except that instead of giving the player with Initiative a choice of player, the rules chose the player for us.

----

So, uh, are there any other reasons this might be a rules error?

Well, yes. The biggest problem is that I can't find any card this rule would apply to. Zone attacks would be the obvious candidate, but the rules specifically say that in their case the attacker choses the order.

How about Force Wave?
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13953.msg34022#msg34022
Nope. It's an old ruling, and not justified in writing, but the decision is that the Caster chooses. It's that way in the FAQ, too. Same for Repulse. Same for Gate to Hell. Same for Earthquake.

In fact, I can't find any example where the rulebook is even cited for this sort of question.

So the rule, in actual practice, is that the controller of the spell gets to pick.

I don't know how we got into this situation, but that's the answer. I propose altering the Codex and FAQ to reflect it.

[exid]

Are you sure for the unique event with many effects during the upkeep?
For example if an object would deal 1 damage to every creatrure and another object would heal 1 damage to every creature, the player would decide the order for all creatures and not the creatures's controlers?

Outside the upkeep, I think the player with initiative goes first when players want to do something. But he chooses the order for effects of objects controled by different players.

What does "RAW" mean?


I proposed earlier the sentence below... does it seem correct?

The player with initiative goes first if both players want to act simultaneously.
The order of resolution of simultaneous effects is choosed by the controler of the effects. Exception: during the upkeep it's the controler of the objects affected by the effects who chooses the order.
And if the two rules don't solve the timing issue, the player with initiative chooses the order.