Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker

[DaveW]

i know nobody wants to re-roll after the damage step, but the arguments to re-roll after the rolling step could apply to defend that!
what i said is that if the official ruling sais that A'sF can be reveaeled after the roll step, it must clarify precisly the limits of this oportunity.

Again: No one is saying that you will reroll after the damage step.

It would be roll, re-roll, apply damage... no matter which way this turns out.

So, if AF already is revealed, it would be 1) roll, 2) reroll, 3) apply damage and effects.

Or, if AF is not yet revealed (and if it is determined to be allowed), it would be 1) roll, 2) reveal, 3) reroll, 4) apply damage and effects.

[bigfatchef]

It would be roll, re-roll, apply damage... no matter which way this turns out.

So, if AF already is revealed, it would be 1) roll, 2) reroll, 3) apply damage and effects.

Or, if AF is not yet revealed (and if it is determined to be allowed), it would be 1) roll, 2) reveal, 3) reroll, 4) apply damage and effects.

That summes it up better than every version the previous pages. And from those 2 variations I personally would prefer number 2 for there is more surprise momentum.

[wtcannonjr]

It would be roll, re-roll, apply damage... no matter which way this turns out.

So, if AF already is revealed, it would be 1) roll, 2) reroll, 3) apply damage and effects.

Or, if AF is not yet revealed (and if it is determined to be allowed), it would be 1) roll, 2) reveal, 3) reroll, 4) apply damage and effects.

That summes it up better than every version the previous pages. And from those 2 variations I personally would prefer number 2 for there is more surprise momentum.

Then we might add "May reveal during the Roll Dice step." as the last sentence on the spell effect to clarify the second option.

[DaveW]

It would be roll, re-roll, apply damage... no matter which way this turns out.

So, if AF already is revealed, it would be 1) roll, 2) reroll, 3) apply damage and effects.

Or, if AF is not yet revealed (and if it is determined to be allowed), it would be 1) roll, 2) reveal, 3) reroll, 4) apply damage and effects.

That summes it up better than every version the previous pages. And from those 2 variations I personally would prefer number 2 for there is more surprise momentum.

Then we might add "May reveal during the Roll Dice step." as the last sentence on the spell effect to clarify the second option.

If it is determined that revealing after the roll dice step does not allow a reroll, yes. (If it is determined that you can reroll between steps, then you could reveal after the roll dice step and then roll, since it is a once per round ability... no extra text would be needed then.)

[exid]

Again: No one is saying that you will reroll after the damage step.

it's not about what anybody says, it's about having rules that translate clearly what you want, without bad side effects.

Then we might add "May reveal during the Roll Dice step." as the last sentence on the spell effect to clarify the second option.

there are 2 rules: no revealing during a step and no come back.
i think it would be better not to touch the revealing rule, and add something like "once per round, DURING AN ATTACK, BEFORE THE APPLY STEP you may re-roll..."

(but i still prefere the version i'm use to: A'sF must be revealed befor the rolled step)

[bigfatchef]

This all is turning in circles.

To move forward there are 2 steps to be taken:

1) first of all we need an answer how AF is meant to work or how it should work. Does AF have to be revealed before the roll dice step or does it still work when revealed after the first roll of dice and before damage is applied?

2) as soon as 1) is clear, there is a solution needed how this is fixed in the rules. Change card text? Change step ruling? How to clear this...

[auronvi]

Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed. Pg 18.

At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell Pg 19.

AF if revealed AFTER the roll dice step of an attack cannot effect the dice rolled in that step. This means you have to reveal AF before you roll dice otherwise it will not benefit you.


I think that makes your first part quite clear. Now that means that going into the dice roll we have both AF revealed and Temple of the Dawnbreaker ready to affect the dice roll. This has 4 different outcomes depending on what kind of roll. Initiative doesn't matter.

Mage 1 has AF, Mage 2 has TotD.

Mage 1 attacks, good roll, Mage 2 rerolls, good roll, Mage 1 keeps.
Mage 1 attacks, good roll, Mage 2 rerolls, bad roll, Mage 1 rerolls, keeps.
Mage 1 attacks, bad roll, Mage 1 rerolls, good roll, Mage 2 rerolls, keeps.
Mage 1 attacks, bad roll, Mage 1 rerolls, bad roll, keeps.

To me a reroll is basically an undo. That last roll never happened but now someones ready marker is flipped and they can't undo the new one again but the other player still might be able to. I think this match up is in favor of the player with TotD. It makes the person running Akiros have to roll well twice to keep a good roll while giving them only 1 opportunity to reroll bad rolls.

Now is this fair or intended? I would hope they predicted and tested this interaction before releasing Akiros Favor but it might have been missed and needs to be addressed. I would play like I have written out though and that, I believe, is how Arcane Duels played it out during a tournament when this came up.

[DaveW]

Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed. Pg 18.

At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell Pg 19.

AF if revealed AFTER the roll dice step of an attack cannot effect the dice rolled in that step. This means you have to reveal AF before you roll dice otherwise it will not benefit you.

This is one interpretation, yes. The other (for completeness) is that the subsequent roll of the dice is a separate event (thus not affecting a prior event).

One of these days someone from AW will tell us what the intent is, and the correct way to interpret this. In the meanwhile, we wait.

[exid]

answer is comin'

[exid]

answer is comin'

winter has come... and no answer...

[Laddinfance]

With everything else going on with AW, Bryan and I haven't been able to talk about it yet. I have not forgotten this.

[Moonglow]

With everything else going on with AW, Bryan and I haven't been able to talk about it yet. I have not forgotten this.

You promise?

[Laddinfance]

With everything else going on with AW, Bryan and I haven't been able to talk about it yet. I have not forgotten this.

You promise?

Yes.

[Moonglow]

With everything else going on with AW, Bryan and I haven't been able to talk about it yet. I have not forgotten this.

You promise?

Yes.

[Moonglow]

Really really promise?