Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker

[Donovan]

One could say the effect that AF influences is the damage and effect. So as long as you reveal it before dmg and effect is executed, you can re-roll.

[Laddinfance]

You can roll the dice, then reveal Akiro's Favor and re-roll the dice. But you have to do so before the Damage and Effects step. The re-roll is not changing the "roll" itself. It does not add or subtract any dice from that event, it simply allows you to replace the result rolled, with whatever you re-roll.

The biggest thing with the "enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed" is that you can't reveal something that actually modifies the roll. Basically, if you roll an attack, and then decide to reveal a Bear Strength you will NOT gain 2 dice because that event has already happened. Akiro's Favor is generating a re-roll which is not modifying the previous event, but rather making it's own event.

[exid]

The biggest thing with the "enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed" is that you can't reveal something that actually modifies the roll. Basically, if you roll an attack, and then decide to reveal a Bear Strength you will NOT gain 2 dice because that event has already happened. Akiro's Favor is generating a re-roll which is not modifying the previous event, but rather making it's own event.

that's not clear anymore!

I think it's better to see the "can re-roll" rule as a exception on the "cannot affect an event that occurred before" rule.

[Puddnhead]

Exid,

You are replacing the roll with a new one that is generated by Akiro's Favor.  Akiro's Favor triggers a new event that is rolling dice (either damage dice or effect die) that replaces the previous event.

[Donovan]

I think it is a very good and clear explanation.

Bear strength would change the roll event. So that's why revealing BS and rolling 2 extra dice is not possible.

AF does not change the last roll. It just prevents its effect on damage and replaces its effect with the results of a new roll.

I see no conflict regarding the rule that revealing enchantments that would change events that already happened. You are changing the effect not the event with AF.

See it as a roll of 6 dice that did 2 damage now gets the effect of a roll of 6 dice that does 7 damage.

[Zuberi]

I was on the same side as you Exid, so maybe I can help clarify. The sequence of events would go something like this:

Roll Dice Step: You roll your dice. Afterwards, that roll is locked in and can not be changed or modified in any way.

Reveal Akiro's Favor: This generates a new roll that must be handled in identical fashion to the first (i.e. all the same traits and modifiers). Afterwards you have a brand new roll that is separate and distinct from the previous roll.

Apply Damage and Effects Step: You now have two different dice rolls independent of one another but must use the most recent one, the one generated by Akiro's Favor. It's not that the first one has been modified or changed. It's been replaced.

Basically, they're defining reroll to mean generating a brand new, separate, roll identical to the first which will then be used for all future references. The important thing here is "future references". It is consistent with the rule that you can't change the past.

You could technically reveal after the Damage and Effects step to reroll the dice, I think, but since the Damage and Effects have already been applied you wouldn't be able to change the Damage and Effects, and so the reroll would not really have any affect. Similar thing if you wanted to use it to reroll a failed Daze roll. If you reveal it after the Roll to Miss step, you could reroll the die, but you've already suffered the effect of having to skip to the Additional Strikes step and would still be beholden to that effect regardless of the new roll.

[Kelanen]

Thanks for that Ivan - I was also of the opinion that Aaron only explicitly answered half of the question, and was unsure what it meant for when you can reveal AF.

Curiously, this now means that you can roll damage, not like the result and reveal Akiro's Favour for a reroll, but you can't roll a burn, not like the result and reveal Adramelech's Touch for a reroll modified effect. I understand why (and to my mind defining 'event' rather than removing it was the way forward), but it's a curious anomaly, and I'm sure a number of more casual players will hear one rule, and apply it to both scenarios erroneously.

Having removed the event option in upkeep, and made the no retroactive effects from revealing rule, I'm glad it was finally ruled this way though. AT was a weak niche card made very weak, AF is an average card that would have become weaker, and I'm all for making as many cards useful as possible. It seems the better ruling in a broader sense too.

[Donovan]

Huh? Adramelech's Touch has nothing to do with a reroll?

With AT you just prevent a burn condition from being removed in the upkeep phase when a 0 is being rolled?

What did you mean exactly?

[Kelanen]

Sorry, you are right, sloppy wording - it's not a reroll per se, but it's a do-over of the effect.

But you can roll 0 damage, reveal AF and use it... You can't roll 0 on a burn, reveal AT and use it - it's too late at that point.

[exid]

Exid,

You are replacing the roll with a new one that is generated by Akiro's Favor.  Akiro's Favor triggers a new event that is rolling dice (either damage dice or effect die) that replaces the previous event.

and to replace doesn't affect?
well... it's no problem for me since we know how to play it!

[Donovan]

Sorry, you are right, sloppy wording - it's not a reroll per se, but it's a do-over of the effect.

But you can roll 0 damage, reveal AF and use it... You can't roll 0 on a burn, reveal AT and use it - it's too late at that point.

Hi Kelanen. You can't use AF to re-roll fire damage. That happens in upkeep and AF only works with attacks.

I agree the cards are not 100% clear. With AT one could say the wording is: "Whenever a burn condition on this creature rolls a zero...". It says "rolls" not "has rolled".

But then again AF says "Once per round if this creature makes a melee or...".

Using the same argumentation one could say the attack has already started.

AF should perhaps say: "Once per round while this creature is in the process of making a melee or...".

Guess Exid is right:

well... it's no problem for me since we know how to play it!

 

[drmambo23]

If player A reveals AF to reroll dmg, can player B then reveal rhino hide or whatever  since its still before damage and efffect?

Armor or any enchantment being the reaction to AF.
I believe the answer is yes but i just want to make sure

[Halewijn]

Yes

[exid]

Yes

can we have official ruling on this one?

[iNano78]

Yes

can we have official ruling on this one?

You can always reveal an enchantment between steps. Thus, you can reveal Rhino Hide before the Damage and Effects step, like always.

The debate regarding Akiro's Favour was whether or not revealing it at that point is "too late" to have an effect on the original roll (e.g. does the AF roll replace the original roll, or has that opportunity passed by the time you get to the point between the Roll Dice step and Damage and Effects step), not whether or not an enchantment can be revealed then.