The value Mana Flower and Mana Crystal

[ACG]

I have stated very clearly that this play is a loss of tempo up front and that the math will smooth out if you graph it. At the start of the game you get 10 extra mana, how you spend it early in the game will guide your play style. If you play mana boosters up front with your extra mana, they pay for themselves as discussed. After many games with many different openings, I have found great value in the amount mana I am channeling in each turn. So much so that it isn't a simple (Casting Cost - 1 )/5 for the Crystal or Flower. The value to is provided by the enhanced channeling rate early and mid-game, basically rounds 2-8. I favor playing creatures in the 11-13 mana range. The straight channeling increase provides me the ability to summon a creature each round early game and allows me to use this mana to cast other spells in conjunction along way.

I think what others are disagreeing with is the idea that this channeling is a unique benefit from the mana generators. After all, if you saved the 5 mana that you would have used to cast the flower, you could instead dole that out over the next five turns, which would be equivalent.

Of course, this would obviously be pointless, since then you would be in the same position 5 turns later, but without a flower. So saving the mana-per-turn isn't the point here, saving the quick action and mana during the intervening turns is. When you talk about the additional channeling each round, you are correct insofar as there is no benefit to saving the 5 mana to use one at a time over those 5 rounds as opposed to casting the flower, if you are only using one of those mana per round.

If your strategy calls for investing actions in creatures, one per turn, then since you have a limited number of full actions (one per turn, coincidentally), it makes sense to ensure that you channel enough mana each turn to do that. And if your creatures happen to be in the 11-12 range, and you are not playing with a spawnpoint, then you might as well spend your initial starting mana to create mana generators, since you don't have the actions to do anything else.

But it is not correct to say that the channeling gives a unique benefit during the turns it takes to pay off the mana cost of the generator. Playing the generator might be a no-brainer if you have nothing else to do with the mana and don't need more mana to summon creatures than you can channel, but although it undoubtedly gives you an advantage after it has paid off it does not give you a unique advantage while it is paying off; at best, during that time period, it is no better than simply saving your mana, except in the uncommon case when your opponent uses mana drain a lot early game. And the inflexibility that it gives for those five rounds (in case you need to cast something more expensive) is a downside during that time.

[Wildhorn]

Thanks ACG to have said it with a better english than me.
Also I forgot the Vine Tree can cast vine conjuration. So I stand half-corrected (sincenit also spawn creatures )

[sIKE]

The way I see things, is you have certain things you want.have to do early on. If you only channel 9 mana and do not increase channeling once you have spent your bonus start mana, you have two way to plan. Plan for a spell or 2 spells that cost no more than 9 mana or 11 mana (if you cast two flowers). I find that I much prefer the action efficiency of casting Dragonscale Hauberk + Morning Star rather than casting just Hauberk and trying to figure out what to do with 3 mana. Typically there is not much I want to do repeatedly in the 3 mana range. Bump up a couple of points now you are talking. At 9 mana I am always mana starved through out the entire game.

[Wildhorn]

Using all your mana every turn is a very bad way to play. It makes you mana starved and predictable. Opponent know you can't cast a spell that is over your channeling. That is why I prefer to do some big casting in first few turns then cast low mana cost spells to get in the 15-20 mana range at beginning of my turn. Always have 1 spell you want to cast and 1 spell to counter the thing you fear most your opponent would cast that turn. That way you build up a mana pool, allowing you to drop the bomb at the right time.

[lettucemode]

Let's look at it this way: Say you want to do nothing but cast Kreigsbiels as Warlord all game. They cost 11 mana.

WITHOUT MANA FLOWERS
Turn 1 - 19 mana. Down to 8 after casting.
Turn 2 - 17 mana. Down to 6 after casting.
Turn 3 - 15 mana. Down to 4 after casting.
Turn 4 - 13 mana. Down to 2 after casting.
Turn 5 - 11 mana. Down to 0 after casting.
Turn 6 - 9 mana, can't cast any more kreigs

WITH MANA FLOWERS
Turn 1 - 19 mana. Down to 9 after double flower.
Turn 2 - 20 mana. Down to 9 after casting.
Turn 3 - 20 mana. Down to 9 after casting.
and so on.

Without the flowers, you can't make more kreigs after turn 5 (yes I know there's a limit on level 2+ creatures, ignore it for now). However with the flowers you can make them indefinitely. So the flowers pay off on round 6 as expected.

But let's try it with the more expensive Bridge Trolls instead.

WITHOUT MANA FLOWERS
Turn 1 - 19 mana. Down to 6 after casting.
Turn 2 - 15 mana. Down to 2 after casting.
Turn 3 - 11 mana. can't cast any more trolls

WITH MANA FLOWERS
Turn 1 - 19 mana. Down to 9 after double flower.
Turn 2 - 20 mana. Down to 7 after casting.
Turn 3 - 18 mana. Down to 5 after casting.
Turn 4 - 16 mana. Down to 3 after casting.
Turn 5 - 14 mana. Down to 1 after casting.
Turn 6 - 12 mana. can't cast any more trolls

From this example we can see that on Turn 3, both builds have 2 trolls out. However on turn 4, the build with the mana flowers is actually ahead on total Troll numbers before the mana from the flowers mathematically evens out. What do we make of that?

[Wildhorn]

Redo your Troll example but keep going with no flower...

You will see 3 troll for both on turn 4 and 4 for both on turn 5 .

But no Flower had an extra Troll for 2 Turns

[Zuberi]

From this example we can see that on Turn 3, both builds have 2 trolls out. However on turn 4, the build with the mana flowers is actually ahead on total Troll numbers before the mana from the flowers mathematically evens out. What do we make of that?

We make out that you didn't chart past round 3 without mana flowers, not that it doesn't match up.

Round 4: 7 mana after casting
Round 5: 3 mana after casting
Round 6: Can't cast.

Thus, by round 6 they both have 4 Trolls out and the Mana Flower does not come out ahead until Round 7.

[Zuberi]

I think using mana generators is a valid strategy, but it is also fine to not use them. This is one part of the game that is actually fairly clear cut and simple. Before Round 7, not casting the mana generators clearly gives you an advantage over casting them. However, after Round 7, the mana generators come out with the advantage. The question is, which advantage are you better able to leverage into a win?

People who play for a quick aggro game shouldn't waste the time and resources on mana generators. They want to have a clear lead by the time round 7 comes around, and I believe that it is possible for them to do this. However, if you don't expect to have the game decided early on, then the mana generators are probably better.

I think the danger really lies in the extremes. If you are rushing your opponent without setting up an engine, then you are risking running low on steam when his kicks into gear. However, if you are building a big engine, then you are leaving yourself at risk to a rush. I tend to pack some kind of infrastructure in my books, be it mana crystals or spawnpoints, but I typically don't cast more than one during the game. You don't want to paint yourself into a corner, but rather leave yourself room to respond to your opponent.

[lettucemode]

Eh, I tried.

[sIKE]

I really haven't seen any quick games any more since the nerfs of BF and ToL. Most of my games are in the 10-12 rounds range. I have found the most success being able to consistently cast spells in a round with my channeling in the 10-11 range. Payoff is almost never in the front of my mind, when I am planning out the opening for a new book, I like to have 4-5 rounds (roughly) mapped out with an A and B scenario. I have found that if I have spent most of my 28 mana (Channeling 9) in the first two rounds (non channeling boost plays), that my games typically end in defeat for my mage. On the other hand 10/11 Channeling with a equal opponent will typically be a winner for me.

This line of thought applies more to the 9 Channeling mages much more so than the 10 Channeling mages.

[Wildhorn]

4-5 round to setup? In my meta by 5th round one of the 2 mages usually is at half hp. We are very agressive.

[sIKE]

4-5 round to setup? In my meta by 5th round one of the 2 mages usually is at half hp. We are very agressive.

I have found that the Guardian Angels from CoK really put a damper down on Agro decks. No wonder you don't like Mana Flowers, they are a waste in that situation. A bit off topic - Do you play on OCTGN? Some people only like IRL and that I understand too.

[Wildhorn]

I do not play on OCTGN but only because I dont have a PC.

[reddawn]

Mana Crystals/Flowers are perfectly fine, but you're not supposed to splurge 15 mana and 3 actions on them in most games.  1-2 mana making cards is all you really need at most, and since it's only 2 actions, you won't get so behind (in actions) since that play only takes 1 round. 

As others have said, rings are the best.  A solid opener for pretty much any mage is his/her class ring + move + mana crystal/flower, or 2x mana crystals + move, and then Turn 2 is class ring + creature or whatever.  Basically, you don't have any real risk of being attacked on turn 1, so there's no reason not to improve your channeling.

Round 2 you could be attacked, but that's not really wise on your opponent's part because that gives up developing their board with creatures/conjurations.  The fastest openings possible aren't actually viable if the other player is running armor and some way to heal...which they should.

[Aylin]

Using all your mana every turn is a very bad way to play. It makes you mana starved and predictable. Opponent know you can't cast a spell that is over your channeling. That is why I prefer to do some big casting in first few turns then cast low mana cost spells to get in the 15-20 mana range at beginning of my turn. Always have 1 spell you want to cast and 1 spell to counter the thing you fear most your opponent would cast that turn. That way you build up a mana pool, allowing you to drop the bomb at the right time.

I rarely use all of my mana for a given round, but I do often spend most of it. 2-4 left over unless I'm going melee with my mage.