Opinions are like Teleports. Everyone has one.

[Shad0w]

 Its 530am just took 1st at MTG born event. Must remember to reply later
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Well it slowed down at work this morning.
So I have some time to respond.
Lets define a few things before I move on.


Metagame - The composition of build archetypes in a particular format/tournament. Metagame can go from a store or play group level all the way out to a global level.

Tier One - The build at the top of the metagame. These are generally considered to be the best in a particular format. Tier lists are made by comparing how favorable your matchups are and how many good matchups you have in total, generally by community consensus. You then assign a score based on these results and rank them from best to worst.

 When most people talk about the current meta they are looking at the games played on OCTGN and the event results that are posted. With that knowledge people then rate the mages and sort then into different levels of power. This is not to say that the lower powered mages cant win just it is not likely if both are played by equal skilled players.

So whats makes that the wizard tier 1 in the current meta. Wizards have no school at triple cost and the toolbox spells in arcane are at normal cost. Other mages currently have some triple cost and are double for arcane cost.  For the same reasons this puts the Warlord at tier 3, paying triple for arcane causes a player to make cuts in other places when building if they what a good arcane tool package.

( This next part is where I would say what would be the path need to balance out the mages again but since I am on design team I can not. Yes we are watch the meta as it changes and grows. ) We are always mindful of what is going on with the current state of the game.



PS: Yes MW does have formats for example we could play all base set or all apprentice books. We could play DvN / FvW but most people choose to play all sets with no promos.

[Sylex]

Its 530am just took 1st at MTG born event. Must remember to reply later

Congrats! What did you run? Was there any teleporting involved sir?

[Shad0w]

Its 530am just took 1st at MTG born event. Must remember to reply later

Congrats! What did you run? Was there any teleporting involved sir?

For Born unto Gods I played BW and got 2 demons 1 Arcon token gen and enoungh kill to run 5 main deck

[barriecritzer]

The only mage who is really affected by triple cost for spells is the Warlord, paying triple for arcane makes him not worth playing (I built a Warlord spell book then realized I could make an Earth Mage that would be better) especially when there are not enough high level war spells. The other mages that have to pay triple such as the Warlock and the Priestess really are not hindered very much because neither mage uses spells from the schools they are penalized. I am glad that the new mages are schooled in two schools instead of having a penalty that really never came into play anyways.

[Gizzu]

The only mage who is really affected by triple cost for spells is the Warlord, paying triple for arcane makes him not worth playing (I built a Warlord spell book then realized I could make an Earth Mage that would be better) especially when there are not enough high level war spells. The other mages that have to pay triple such as the Warlock and the Priestess really are not hindered very much because neither mage uses spells from the schools they are penalized. I am glad that the new mages are schooled in two schools instead of having a penalty that really never came into play anyways.

Almost agree with this. Warlord needs more War/Command spells, maybe Warlord only creatures.
Can't wait FIF !!! 

CYA
G.

[Mrmt]

I'm not sure how I would balance the wizard. Overall I think arcane wonders has done a good job, but arcane is a little too powerful which explains both the wizards strength and the warlords weakness.

I would love to comment on this but I can not. 

All these promises...

Such an interesting dilemma though for the company. The easiest thing to do logically would be to tweak the mages themselves, rather than change every card, but I guess that is not going to happen.

The issues facing the warlord are entrenched indeed, most fundamentally that it appears to be based on a couple of ideas (build a fortress, command an army) that simply do not work, given the surprisingly weak tools it has to do the job, and the striking limitations it has built in (conjurations that can't be placed next to each other, siege weapons that fire only every other turn, low mana, builders that take forever to do anything etc)

Every bit of frustration the OP feels over the apparent advantages of the wizard is mirrored in frustration over the manifest disadvantages of the warlord.

Intrigued to see what you pull out of the hat here.

[Sylex]

When I originally made this post, I had not even looked at the Warlord yet. These were pretty much all first impressions just from buying the core set, and CoK. Now that I own all the cards, I have to say that I haven't the slightest interest in even attempting to build a Warlord, as it looks from the cards that it would be the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight. The spells in Arcane are just too important in my opinion to have such a steep cost, and meanwhile the Wizard gets free reign of every school without any penalty at all, not to mention he gets to choose TWO different schools to play regular price for while everyone else only gets one (other than the Warlord, who even with two schools at regular cost, he is totally neutered by his weakness to Arcane)

That should speak pretty loudly in my opinion that if you aren't going to change the mages, something needs to be done spell wise to even pique my interest in playing a Warlord (and believe me, I WANT to play him).

Maybe have some smaller troops for him that can use an action the same turn they are summoned (a la Haste from MtG) since he seems like a pretty "Red" mage. I mean there HAS to be something that can be done to even things out. I wish AW all the best in their struggle to make every mage as viable, and fun to play as any other, because that should be one of the main goals in creating new things is making people WANT to play with them. So far, I'm just not even close to wanting to make a book for the Warlord.

[Mrmt]

That should speak pretty loudly in my opinion that if you aren't going to change the mages, something needs to be done spell wise to even pique my interest in playing a Warlord.

Assuming no changes to the mage card, and that the changes will instead come through new spells, will this expansion  become obligatory to make the warlord viable? Will it make cards like the goblin builder viable?

I feel there are some great possibilities with the command system - 'Get a move on!', lets minions take a full action as a quick action, or 'Load the machines!’, lets a goblin add a load token to a siege engine etc. But it may all have too many knock on consequences.

Interesting stuff for AW.

[Laddinfance]

We've put a lot of time and effort into the cards for Forged in Flame. The Warlord has always been a favorite of mine. We've really approached this set with the Warlord in mind. He's looking to get all new tools and some pretty unique cards.

I read all of these posts as they go up, and I contemplate on your feedback. I wanted to work on Forged in Fire, because I wanted a chance to give the warlord some legs. I'm very proud of the work we've done, especially the work of our playtesters. No game turns on a dime, but I hope when you get to see Forged in Fire you'll see that we want to listen to our players. We love this game as much as you guys and we want to see it prosper.

As always, feel free to email me if you have any concerns.

[Sylex]

No game turns on a dime, but I hope when you get to see Forged in Fire you'll see that we want to listen to our players.

Of this I have NO doubt, and I honestly can't wait to see what you've done.

Even if it seems obligatory to get FiF to make Warlord "worth it" I would gladly lay my money down for that chance.

I personally don't feel obligated. I mean for someone who just wants to play an awesome board game on the weekends every blue moon, the Warlord would seem very fun, and would be just fine, but for someone like myself who been playing competitive card games for a while, I analyze, and calculate, playtest, then analyze and calculate some more, and the difference becomes a lot clearer as to what is "good" and what is not "viable". I believe those are relative terms in regards to the player. It only really matters if you plan on being competitive, but on the other hand, everyone wants to win.

Since MW has more of an LCG feel to it than just a weekend board game, I would say that buying an expansion is just a given for making the game better, and not a mandatory purchase. I don't plan on BEING competitive, but at the same time I want to PLAY competitive because I play a lot, and I also want to win.

Win or lose, I'm always going to want to see what new ideas, and strategies the AW team has in store for all us would-be know-it-all CCG players. I'm sure it will be worth every penny. Godspeed gentlemen.

[Sailor Vulcan]

No game turns on a dime, but I hope when you get to see Forged in Fire you'll see that we want to listen to our players.

Of this I have NO doubt, and I honestly can't wait to see what you've done.

Even if it seems obligatory to get FiF to make Warlord "worth it" I would gladly lay my money down for that chance.

I personally don't feel obligated. I mean for someone who just wants to play an awesome board game on the weekends every blue moon, the Warlord would seem very fun, and would be just fine, but for someone like myself who been playing competitive card games for a while, I analyze, and calculate, playtest, then analyze and calculate some more, and the difference becomes a lot clearer as to what is "good" and what is not "viable". I believe those are relative terms in regards to the player. It only really matters if you plan on being competitive, but on the other hand, everyone wants to win.

Since MW has more of an LCG feel to it than just a weekend board game, I would say that buying an expansion is just a given for making the game better, and not a mandatory purchase. I don't plan on BEING competitive, but at the same time I want to PLAY competitive because I play a lot, and I also want to win.

Win or lose, I'm always going to want to see what new ideas, and strategies the AW team has in store for all us would-be know-it-all CCG players. I'm sure it will be worth every penny.

I agree with most of this. Something to add I think is that it really just depends on how much you like the Warlord and the Warlock.

Godspeed gentlemen.

...and ladies and people of all genders and those who don't have a gender? Also, for some reason I thought only people involved with the United States Air Force say "Godspeed", and only when they're about to send someone on a dangerous mission. That might be just because of the Science Fiction I've watched, though...

[Zuberi]

Nobody has trademarked the term Godspeed. Anybody may use it. I doubt he meant to leave anybody out with the term gentlemen either. The English language hasn't really caught up to the Times yet and there isn't quite an equivalent term for including everybody. I think we are getting off topic though.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Nobody has trademarked the term Godspeed. Anybody may use it. I doubt he meant to leave anybody out with the term gentlemen either. The English language hasn't really caught up to the Times yet and there isn't quite an equivalent term for including everybody. I think we are getting off topic though.

Godspeed everybody! (Zuberi thought there were not sufficient unisex/agendered/gender neutral pronouns, but I just proved them wrong. In fact, singular they has been in use for hundreds of years, and it's only relatively recently in history that a bunch of sexist grammar nazis banned its use.)

Wow. Opinions really ARE like teleports.

1. Wizards are OP
2. Arcane Wonders is doing their best to make the Wizard not OP
3. Sylex expressed his appreciation of that by telling them "Godspeed Gentlemen".
4. Sexism/political correctness/ grammar.

I would say in the past few posts, we've moved once on topic and then warped about 3 zones off topic. That's 9 mana.

[Sylex]

Well the topic was supposed to be my opinions as well as everyone else's, and to that extent, we haven't been OFF topic very often.

Also Godspeed gentlemen was pretty much a figure of speech towards the developers in hopes of a speedy and successful release.
In Air Force terms, I hope that mission is successful. I certainly wasn't trying to be sexist or negative toward any certain demographic, although I may sometimes forget that I'm speaking to a broader audience here than I'm used to so if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do so.

That being said, if political correctness is what you seek, then my posts probably aren't the ones to follow.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Well the topic was supposed to be my opinions as well as everyone else's, and to that extent, we haven't been OFF topic very often.

Also Godspeed gentlemen was pretty much a figure of speech towards the developers in hopes of a speedy and successful release.
In Air Force terms, I hope that mission is successful. I certainly wasn't trying to be sexist or negative toward any certain demographic, although I may sometimes forget that I'm speaking to a broader audience here than I'm used to so if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do so.

That being said, if political correctness is what you seek, then my posts probably aren't the ones to follow.

No worries, I wasn't offended, just mildly annoyed. When people are being unintentionally sexist without malice, it's like a hard to reach itch that just HAS to be scratched. It probably wouldn't bug me so much if I didn't encounter it ALL THE TIME. Imagine if everyone around you started believing the sky was teal or turquoise, even though the daytime sky is obviously blue and not green. Even if it doesn't really matter, you'd probably have the strong urge to correct people about the color of the sky too.