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Author Topic: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good  (Read 23996 times)

sIKE

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Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« on: January 24, 2014, 10:38:56 AM »
In the game as is he is a mediocre tanker, Warlock, FM, and Priest do it much better. He probably has some of the best creature selection out there that synergies with his special ability. There in lies his biggest issue, Flock of Falcons? Make one a pet?

I drop Orb and Obelisk game over. I win with the Warlord.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:54:01 AM by sIKE »
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FrostByte

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 10:51:28 AM »


And it seems that as a swarm, he might start to be outclassed by the necromancer.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:54:10 AM by FrostBite »
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2014, 11:20:09 AM »
And to top it all, not only does he have such mediocre abilities, nobody ever steals the Beastmaster's spells!
You never see Grizzlly, Bear Strength, Regrowth (Belt), Eagleclaw Boots, Mongoose Agility etc in other books...
Just compare Lair to Temple of Asrya, Pentagram or Barracks, it's so inferior!
Why have a Fast Flyer cast in Final QC when you can have a Slow Crawler?
Why have a QC Defence 8+ next turn guard when you can have a Block?

The Straywood is sooo mediocre, sooo 2012-2013 fashion....
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

sIKE

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 11:24:14 AM »
Wow you got my point, his creatures are so good that they work just as well with the other mages. You swarm I Orb & Obelisk you, I win.

Cold hard truth. Get a little piercing, and that bear goes down much quicker than you would ever expect.
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 01:13:10 PM »
ANd lets not get started on that stupid looking beard he's got.....
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IndyPendant

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2014, 02:46:25 AM »
Oh, it's ON now!

--Except I got beaten to the punchline.  Bah!

*sits back down, mumbling to himself*

Alexander West

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2014, 03:32:56 AM »
Are Obelisk and Orb that widely played?

It seems like they are troublesome cards, but maybe countering with Force Hammer and some small hit(s) wouldn't be so bad?

To me the biggest problem is that there are three very different ways of attacking a swarm of weenies:  Mana taxes (Orb/Obelisk/Cloak), area attack (Ring of Fire, etc.), or Mass Sleep.  Each requires very specific counters, and in particular area attack is tricky as the best counter is a pre-emptive Etherian Lifetree.

That said, swarms are really potent.  Being able to get 12 dice of damage into the far corner on T3 is nice, and adding ~6 dice a turn from there is nothing to shake a stick at.

If your opponent doesn't have any good anti-swarm plan, they will definitely lose.
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sIKE

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2014, 09:57:54 AM »
If you drop 2 mana flowers you are now channeling 11, if you have 3 creatures (and it is even worse with more) out after Channeling then after Upkeep you are at 8 and not have enough to cast it and if you did carry mana some over and had the mana to cast, you would  then have to get into range costing mana.

While you are struggling with this, I do nothing to your creatures other than avoid them use pushes and teleports to keep your pain up while moving a few big around to kill your mage. It is a slow and painful death, unless you don't pay the Upkeep on your creatures and then it is a quick and painful death.
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ACG

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2014, 11:26:56 AM »
Swarms can become ridiculous very quickly when you use cards that buff all your creatures at once. My current beastmaster deck is based on this concept - swarm with level 1 creatures and use global buffs like lifetree, the totems, and Call of the Wild to drastically increase their efficiency. Against control builds, my strategy is Mana Prism to compensate for temporary loss in tempo coupled with targeting the source of my woes and destroying it as soon as possible. Stack a few global Charge + 1 and Piercing + 1 and Orb/Obelisk will melt like butter before the combined might of a (primarily fox-based) swarm. Also contains corrosive orchids and dissolves to deal with pesky suppression cloaks and armor. With Altar of the Iron Guard, you can even quick summon bobcat guards during quickcast to protect your beastmaster that turn. This build has been effective for me in past games.

I would say that the beastmaster is pretty good. No other mage really has the same swarming capabilities from the start of the match - closest comparison is the necromancer and the druid, but they take a little while to build up. The beastmaster can not only swarm faster than any other mage from the beginning of the game, but (crucially) has more global buffs available cheaply for his creatures than any other mage. In addition to his excellent global animal buffs, he also has cheaper access to holy and war zonal buffs than the druid or necromancer - he can use both fortified position and sacred ground at only double-cost. Also, Rajan's Fury combos very nicely with zonal enchantment buffs because if they stay in the zone your creatures get the buff and if they leave the zone, your creatures charge. Overall, I would say that this ability to globally buff creatures is the beastmaster's greatest strength (along with the ability to pump them out quickly)

Sailor Vulcan

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Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2014, 08:10:32 PM »
I think the current best way to stop the obelisk/orb combo with straywood is to give your beastmaster fast and then use force hammer on the obelisk as soon as you are in range.  Intercepting creatures will probably shut down this strategy though. You could try using a push effect to move the interceptor(s) out of the zone, them casting force hammer. After that, your beastmaster needs to make a quick getaway so they can summon more creatures. Unfortunately, a complicated trick like this will probably cost like twenty mana.

I think it might need reminding that the advantage with using swarm is sheer number of actions. A good swarm is one that either 1. overwhelms the enemy by sending more creatures after them than can be dealt with at once other than with a zone attack, or 2. Makes a smaller swarm  strong enough to still have a good action advantage and buff it. I think swarms should ideally go after the enemy in waves, with the size of the wave depending on the number of attacks the enemy can make against it in one round. Unlike the Necromancer, the beastmaster likes to buff his swarm, and I think he could like it more than the Druid too. I propose that another conjuration like Rajan's fury and Tooth and nail be made, but for giving animal creatures armor +1. The straywood beastmaster should be using a smaller swarm and supporting it with buffs to give them more armor, better attacks and even healing.

This doesn't completely solve the orb/obelisk problem of course. I'm wondering if perhaps the straywood beastmaster could lessen orb/obelisk impact by not summoning their entire swarm right away. Let's do some calculations.

If you summon 6 Bitterwood foxes it costs 30 mana. Add in Rajan's fury/tooth and nail for 7 mana a piece. So now you're at 37 or 44 mana. Way too much to spend as quickly as possible.

But wait a minute, the beastmaster channels 9 mana per round! Why not split it up more over time?


Round 1: (19 mana) cast a mana flower, and ring of beasts (-7)
Round 2: (22 mana) move, cast a Bitterwood fox and a conjuration or zone enchantment that raises their armor; -12 mana (in whatever order is optimal)

After this, use your judgement to decide when to summon more. You need action advantage and buffs to beat the enemy mage. If your opponent has no creatures guarding them, and you have a mana flower, ring of beasts, two foxes and a Rajan's fury (-22 mana out of 39) go ahead and send them in to attack already. Your opponent will have to spend their actions dealing with your two foxes, giving you the chance to summon more of them. And since there's only two of them, your opponent probably won't use a zone attack or orb/obelisk. If your opponent does have a powerful creature, chances are it won't be able to stop both of your foxes from reaching the enemy mage, and if they send their big creature at you instead of your swarm, be ready with a block. (-22 + -4 out of 39) If they have two creatures, you should either summon another level 1 animal, or you could tanglevine one of the enemy bigs (-26 + -5 out of 39.)

If and when they do put down orb/obelisk at least part of your swarm should already be in or adjacent to the enemy mages zone, and therefore between 0 and 2 zones away from either conjuration.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 08:19:55 PM by Imaginator »
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jacksmack

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2014, 08:16:09 PM »
This thread cant be serious....

sIKE

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2014, 09:02:18 PM »
All good points Imaginator, however Orb+Obelisk would require more than just a single Force Hammer. When played, what I like to do is drop Obelisk at the end of the round of the opposing mages initiative, preferably when there is little to no mana pool on his side. Then I would skip casting during First Quick Cast Phase and my first action would be to activate my mage and quick cast (if needed when opposing mages creatures are 1 zone away) Force Wave, then drop orb using my mages Action.

I haven't played a mana denial deck in a while, but once it became legal Altar of Piece would be dropped when you finally got your creatures in place to attack Orb/Obelisk/Altar and I think a couple of Pacify's on your fatties and it would be lights out. Such a long, boring, and yucky games they are though.

This is why BM is not wining competitions or serious games.

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IndyPendant

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2014, 02:48:17 AM »
Beastmaster with Pet & Grizzly is perfectly capable of winning serious games.  Competitions are for Wizards only though.

Beastmaster Swarm can't win against competent players without a serious imbalance in the dice rolls, because there are far too many cards that each counter a Swarm build almost single-handedly.  Damage shields, zone attacks, and mana denial are the main ones.  Place two cards in any combination of those dozen+ options available in your spellbook, and your opponent's entire Swarm build is shut down hard--at the cost of 4 - 8 of your own spellbook points.  Those cards are often useful against non-Swarm builds as well, so there isn't even really a tradeoff to consider when including a few anti-Swarm cards in your book.

That's the main reason why Swarm just does not work.

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2014, 03:46:09 AM »
I've been using the Force Hammer, my mage, and my swarm to take down the Obelisk. Maybe I'm just new at this but it doesn't scare me that bad. Been playing one to two games a day for a little over a month now against about a dozen different players and yes swarm works. Either the Obelisk comes out early game when I don't have that many creatures thus it isn't as effective or it comes out late game when I probably have enough creatures to just bum rush it. The orb makes it irritating yes but once I have my beasts in place I don't really need to move them anymore do I?

Mind you all my friends and I are new to the game like I said but thus far we haven't seen any one mage/style just dominate totally. We're starting tournaments at a local game store next month though so who knows.
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ringkichard

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Re: Why the Beastmaster isn't very good
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2014, 10:52:26 AM »
If you're playing twice a day for a month you're not new anymore. Your group strategies may (or may not) be sheltered, but you personally have plenty of experience.
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