DvN SPOILER: Devouring Jelly

[Kharhaz]

Hmm, Kharhaz thematically that just doesn't make sense to me based on the ability. Corrode effects armor, so I would have thought that if you rolled attacks but all were blocked by armor, the effect would still trigger. Obvioulsy if you missed entirely then that wouldn't make sense. I'm glad the question was asked, I would have played incorrectly.

It does make sense that he wouldn't be able to regen from a corrode only attack though.

Secondary effects are rolled simultaneously with attack rolls but are resolved after the damage is dealt, or not dealt if all blanks.

So lets assume our ooze rolls 4 non critical damage and rolls a 12 to generate 2 corrode tokens vs. an iron golem (armor 5).

Because of how armor and damage are calculated, immediately after checking for critical damage, the iron golem would not take any damage from the hit even though it will end with the golem having 3 armor.

In short, attacks only deal damage if the amount rolled on the attack die are not reduced to zero from armor.

Secondary effects like rot, taint, and now corrode are not part of that attack. Otherwise a zombie bat could use rot tokens to make more zombies via ziggurat of undeath

[labartels]

Looks good- but why does every halfway decent attacking creature have to get slow especially when it's only attack is a full action?

Looking forward to the Promo for Peanut Butter Golem

12 Mana
Arcane
no armor
12 life

any creature attacking the PB Golem is slowed for the rest of the game.
If the PB golem attacks or is attacked by a Jelly creature both creatures are banished and a a healing shrine of PB&J is summoned in their place for three rounds. Any creature as a quick action may partake of the PBJ with the following effects:
Regenerate two points of damage and gain sugar boost (Fast trait) for their next turn.

Weakness Canines: if the PB Golem is attacked by a canine it is instantly destroyed, but the canine is immobilized for two rounds.

sorry guys- just had to do that! 

[Wiz-Pig]

Hmm, Kharhaz thematically that just doesn't make sense to me based on the ability. Corrode effects armor, so I would have thought that if you rolled attacks but all were blocked by armor, the effect would still trigger. Obvioulsy if you missed entirely then that wouldn't make sense. I'm glad the question was asked, I would have played incorrectly.

It does make sense that he wouldn't be able to regen from a corrode only attack though.

Secondary effects are rolled simultaneously with attack rolls but are resolved after the damage is dealt, or not dealt if all blanks.

So lets assume our ooze rolls 4 non critical damage and rolls a 12 to generate 2 corrode tokens vs. an iron golem (armor 5).

Because of how armor and damage are calculated, immediately after checking for critical damage, the iron golem would not take any damage from the hit even though it will end with the golem having 3 armor.

In short, attacks only deal damage if the amount rolled on the attack die are not reduced to zero from armor.

Secondary effects like rot, taint, and now corrode are not part of that attack. Otherwise a zombie bat could use rot tokens to make more zombies via ziggurat of undeath

This is sort of an interesting interaction between armor and corrode that reduces corrodes effectiveness against high armor targets. The Iron Golem with it's 5 armor will with an average result block all regular damage from a 5 die attack. This isn't a huge issue when rolling this many dice because the chance of getting at least one critical damage is pretty high and there is a significant chance of dealing enough regular damage to overcome the armor. But, it does reveal how hit or miss something like a Acid Ball is against an Iron Golem: There is only a 55-56% chance that it's going to do anything as you must roll critical damage in order to hit and make the corrode effect stick.

I think the Devouring Jelly is just at the point where is has a strong enough attack to take down Iron Golems effectively, but until you hit with that first attack that lands a corrode marker there is a pretty decent chance that the Golem is going to be able to face him down. If we break it down a little bit there is a 2/3 chance of rolling high enough to get one or two corrode effect from the d12, but there is a 12.5% chance of scoring no critical damage on that roll and only about a 36% chance of dealing enough damage to exceed his armor without critical damage. This leaves us at roughly a 38% chance of not landing a corrode marker on an Iron Golem on any given attack. Which if course means that you didn't manage to heal either.

I guess the point of all of this is that it seems like an Iron Golem even in a one on one match up with the Devouring Jelly has a reasonable chance to come out the winner. 2 Iron Golems and the Jelly will be instantly spread on toast with basically no effect.

[ringkichard]

The specific situation I was thinking of was that a creature with no armor (Zombie Minion, maybe) takes 0 damage from the red dice in the attack, and would take 1 point of corrode, but because it has no armor it takes 1 point of damage instead.

It takes this damage during the same step of combat as it would take regular red die combat damage (step 4), because thats the step that resolves effects.

In this case, it doesn't seem like its the token causing the damage, but the rules of the Jelly's corrode ability itself. The ability rules cause the damage as an effect instead of placing the token, so it can't actually be the condition that's causing the damage (like it would be with rot), because the condition token is never applied, an effect is instead.

Jelly's reconstruct ability triggers when it "attacks and damages a coporial creature". Are you sure this doesn't count? Its the creature's attack effect that is causing the damage.

[HomelessJoe]

I get that tweaking the effect rule for corrode only would make things unnecessarily complicated and confusing. I was just saying that thematically it doesn't make much sense. I do however understand that this is a game, and however much the rest of the game does it beautifully, everything can't play out realistically. I was thinking of it like aliens acid blood from the movie aliens. I had an initial build strategy of raptors being support armor killers towards golems and other high armor creatures. They would spit acid slowly taking away high armor with a main creature doing most of the damage. If the raptors did critical damage all the better, but they were there as more of a support. But no biggie, the great thing about this game is that I can just trash that build idea and find another combination in the endless possibilities.

BTW the flavor text of Jelly is absolutely brilliant!!! "Good Gods! Is that Flamberson's head floating inside there?" Classic!

[ringkichard]

Wiz, where are you getting this? I just re-read the damage rules, and theres nothing there about needing to do damage to in order to apply a rolled condition or effect. A Jelly attack that does 5 normal damage and 2 corrode to an Iron Golem is going to leave it with all its health but two fewer armor.

[Shad0w]

Wiz, where are you getting this? I just re-read the damage rules, and theres nothing there about needing to do damage to in order to apply a rolled condition or effect. A Jelly attack that does 5 normal damage and 2 corrode to an Iron Golem is going to leave it with all its health but two fewer armor.

Ring is correct even on a role of 0 damage you still get the effect of an attack.

[HomelessJoe]

Woohoo!

[Kharhaz]

In this case, it doesn't seem like its the token causing the damage, but the rules of the Jelly's corrode ability itself. The ability rules cause the damage as an effect instead of placing the token, so it can't actually be the condition that's causing the damage (like it would be with rot), because the condition token is never applied, an effect is instead.

The rules of the corrode token is causing the damage, not the jelly's attack.

Another example:

I vampiric strike my giant wolf spider. His attack gains the vampiric trait but regardless of how it rolls, it will never gain life from the damage caused by it's taint ability, it is not part of the attack. 

Same thing here with the jelly. The corrode token checks to see if the targets armor would be reduced to zero and, if it would, deals 1 point of damage. It does not add 1 point of damage to the attack. Even if it rolls 2 corrode tokens, it checks the first token, then the second, and deals 1 point of damage, then 1 point of damage. Each point is independent of the attack and would not trigger the jelly's reconstruct ability

[Moonglow]

I think there is some confusion about the ability being triggered:

I get the impression Kharhaz was talking about Reconstruct only being triggered if the Jelly does damage from its attack dice. 

Others have picked up the view that the Corrode is only triggered if the attack dice do damage.  From other threads/previous questions I'm fairly sure that this isn't the case (and not what Kharhaz was saying).

The wording in the rule book is a little ambiguous, as it does say that an attack roll of blank dice is a miss, which implies the attack didn't connect.  However, the next stage of resolving the attack is still to roll for conditions, regardless of the outcome of the attack dice roll.

The only way an attack really misses (and the condition roll step negated) is through an enchantment reveal type dodge or a successful defence roll.

I'm being fairly assertive here in my conclusions, so hopefully I'm right

[Laddinfance]

I'm glad this came up guys. I'll make sure that this very question makes the FAQ for DVN.

[Moonglow]

Its just a generic FAQ item isnt it?  rather than specific to DvN? or do all game update/FAQ get rolled out each expansion release? 

I'm glad this came up guys. I'll make sure that this very question makes the FAQ for DVN.

[aquestrion]

Yes lets give the wizard another uber card....great

[Laddinfance]

Its just a generic FAQ item isnt it?  rather than specific to DvN? or do all game update/FAQ get rolled out each expansion release? 

I'm glad this came up guys. I'll make sure that this very question makes the FAQ for DVN.

We're trying to address questions that come up in DVN with the next update to the FAQ. New releases often add the most to potential FAQ's. Yes this is a good general question.

[Wiz-Pig]

Sorry for the confusions and very glad to here that armor doesn't cause a miss. I guess I was just assuming that others were correct.